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Thread: The DIYer Question

  1. #1
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    I am posting this in the general discussion area so homeowners can read and participate as well as the rest of us in the business.

    Let's not turn this into a flame war, let's be civil and have a reasonable discussion on this. So, here is the question.


    Most of us perform all sorts of work on our own homes and cars that could be hired out to professionals. Many of you change your own oil, repair you own automobile, some even rebuild cars as a hobby. Some do your own electrical wiring and plumbing and even build your own house or remodel your kitchen or bath. Some like myself, have electronics as a hobby and design and build circuits. Some homeowners have all sorts of mechanical and electrical skills and are pretty handy at performing all kinds of things that could be left to the professionals.

    So, with that in mind to what degree do you think a real handy, mechanically and electrically skilled homeowner can perform work on their own heating and cooling for their home? Sure, you want to protect your HVAC careers but the fact is there are equivalent things that you do for yourselves that could be left to the professionals. We all do this to some extent. To what extent can the homeowner perform their own work?

    Topic is open for discussion. Be civil now!


  2. #2
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    I think its great when people can do things for themselves, I do many things for myself but Im not going to professionals asking them to help me do it or tell me how either, thats the problem with DIYers on this site, they dont have the skills or knowledge to do the job so they come here and ask us to tell them for free, if they have the skills and knowledge necessary to do the job then I dont have a problem with anyone doing their own hvac work.

  3. #3
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    They can do it all but if their house burns down then I told you so.
    I take my taxs to a tax service if the are wrong then they take care of it.If I done it & it was wrong then it would have to take care of it.

  4. #4
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    Absolutely right, Norm. We climb down the throats of any DIY who asks a question. So we all call pros for everything we need done on our cars or homes? I think not.

    By human nature, we'd like to save a buck if we can do it ourselves. We can get questions answered online for home repairs, car repairs, etc. We can buy any part we want for our cars even though a faulty DIY brake repair can kill many just like a faulty furnace repair can.

    Some people don't know when they are over their heads, many do. I try to help with simple stuff like stat wiring or simple troubleshooting just like I like to be helped on other forums, car repairs or computer troubleshooting. I won't expect a pro there to spend a lot of time with me nor will I go overboard in helping a DIY with a complex HVAC repair.

    I think it would be nice on here if when a homeowner asks something you don't want to answer, don't. But don't get all over them about reading the rules, leave that to the moderators to decide if they want to stop the thread. Our industry has enough bad press with the bad apples we have working in it, we don't want homeowners leaving here with a bad impression of us.

  5. #5
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    Originally posted by swampfox
    I think its great when people can do things for themselves, I do many things for myself but Im not going to professionals asking them to help me do it or tell me how either, thats the problem with DIYers on this site, they dont have the skills or knowledge to do the job so they come here and ask us to tell them for free, if they have the skills and knowledge necessary to do the job then I dont have a problem with anyone doing their own hvac work.
    Couldn't have said it better myself.

  6. #6
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    On heat..No gas or piping(including ignition, valves, safeties and electronics), No vent change or modifications unless they have access to a recent code book, know how to read it and are willing to abide by it. I have to go by code. So should everyone. Your neighbours homes might depend on it.
    On air.. No sealed system work. It can be dangerous as we all know. Who here hasn't had a freeze burn?. Besides IF you can get refrigerant AND a set of gauges, how does a DIY know how much to put it?
    Where I live, it's illegal to weld at home but not braze or solder. Most DIYs wouldn't know the difference between welding and brazing anyway.
    Everything else, fans, dirty coils, body panels and even pipe insulation is theirs to play with. As far as electrics are concerned do whatever is comfortable. I do. There's alot or resi guys out there in the trades who shouldn't be anywhere near 3 phase anyway.
    Is this a Fabreze moment? C.Y.D. I'm voting white elephant. 2¢.

  7. #7
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    Thread Starter
    Originally posted by BaldLoonie
    Absolutely right, Norm. We climb down the throats of any DIY who asks a question. So we all call pros for everything we need done on our cars or homes? I think not.

    By human nature, we'd like to save a buck if we can do it ourselves. We can get questions answered online for home repairs, car repairs, etc. We can buy any part we want for our cars even though a faulty DIY brake repair can kill many just like a faulty furnace repair can.

    Some people don't know when they are over their heads, many do. I try to help with simple stuff like stat wiring or simple troubleshooting just like I like to be helped on other forums, car repairs or computer troubleshooting. I won't expect a pro there to spend a lot of time with me nor will I go overboard in helping a DIY with a complex HVAC repair.

    I think it would be nice on here if when a homeowner asks something you don't want to answer, don't. But don't get all over them about reading the rules, leave that to the moderators to decide if they want to stop the thread. Our industry has enough bad press with the bad apples we have working in it, we don't want homeowners leaving here with a bad impression of us.
    I like your response Baldloonie. You have a well balanced and reasonable view. When I run service calls I am often asked by both homeowners and commercial customers what they can do for themselves. It is interesting when I tell them they usually end up hiring me to do it for them anyway.

    I have met some very mechanically and electrically inclined customers capable of performing all sorts of things for themselves just as I do for myself. You can't afford to hire out everything you need done. You do need to understand your limitations and restrict yourself to those things you really understand.


  8. #8
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    I am in favor of anyone doing absolutely everything for themselves as long as they have the knowledge and skills to do it safely.

    I grew up on a farm and we did everything on the farm. Plumbing, electric, rebuilding engines, fabricating machinery, building barns,etc. etc. The money wasn't there to hire any of it out.

    I respect someone who can do more than one thing. And understand that there are lots and lots of people who, because of thier financial situations, have no choice but to do it all themselves. It was only a few years ago that I was in that boat myself.

    I'm off to change the oil in my car now.
    Ryan
    Maintenance Guy
    -----------------
    naysayer, skeptic, conspiracy theorist

  9. #9
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    Ryan and Norm read

    We all want to save money and I myself have no problem with a home owner who want's to fix their own HVAC if they can do it correctly. BUT IT SHOULD BE INSPECTED

    I can put on a set of brakes, that vehicle has to be inspected by a State approved inspection agency, atleast once a year.
    It should be mandatory to pass inspected in order to be sold. As should homes and any building.

    Let me give a first hand example;

    Someone I know bought a few homes and being handy and industridous did the repairs, well contracted for some[obviously the cheapest price] and did the other repairs himself. Three people died in a fire at that property and this a$$hole is saying it was the tennants fault on local TV. Because the smoke detector batteries were removed.

    Remember I said I know this A$$hole, he's a lying sack of sh-------it. Probably the most egotistical SOB's I ever met

    If you buy a house and you do the Heating and your kidds die from carbon monoxide poisoning, thats on you. But what happens if you buy it, do a hack install and it doesn't get caught by a so called Home Inspector and the Unsuspecting NEW owners kids die.

    Of course there is always the poor SOB who just bought a home that was repaired by the previous owner and made a season but now the A/C doesn't work because it's 90+ degrees and it was never sized or there's mold growing in the walls because the fixerupper didn't use Don's sizing program. Which is excellent by the way

    Sorry for the rant sore subject







    ok Norm you are up!

    [Edited by pjs on 03-13-2005 at 06:37 PM]

  10. #10
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    This sort of question was brought up a week or so ago.
    http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/showthread.php?threadid=70834

  11. #11
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    From a DIY'r I consider myself a rather handy person. before tackeling any project I do some research on the topic. I get annoyed at taking shortcuts. Some coworkers of mine have a motto that I agree with. Be it our job big or small, do it right or not at all. I have taken the road less traveled because it is more sound. I don't want to do anything twice. so I will take my time and do it to the best of my ability. I can say that I do not have direct access to any code books. to make up for my lack of expertice in all fields I am fortunate in several of my friends are experienced. At work I hang out with our maintainence dept. another of the guys was a forman for a home builder for several years. they were invaluable when I redid my kitchen. I like the nicer things, but by having my buds help me out I was able to do a major kitchen remodel in three times the time a contracted professional would, but I did it at one third the price.
    If I had to pay a pro to do the work around my house I wouldn't have money to eat, or even worse I would end up like an old nighbor I had that in 25 years didn't do a single upgrade to their house that wasn't absolutely necessary. It would tough to pay professionals to do all the work, particularly when the money I would have to pay them is 1 1/2 to 2 times the money I make an hour, before taxes.
    My asking questions on sites like this to people who are generous with their knowlege are invaluable to me. I ask questions to decide wether I am capable of fixing the problem or if it is beyond my ability. sometimes the solutions are simple and other times the solutions are not.
    I try not to be an inimformed customer.


  12. #12
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    I am and always have been mechanically inclined and I have what I consider to be good common sense. I know a hazard when I see one and If I dont know , I will ask.

    I have read posts on this site and the DIY sites posted by people that range from having no experience to the people that go as far as trying to convince us that they work in this busnies. Some of the questions they ask are an accident waiting to happen

    I dont claim to be anymore than the student in this busniess , but everytime I read the DIY boards , I am amazed.

    My father always said that "a little knowlege is a dangerous thing"

  13. #13
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    Originally posted by NormChris
    So, with that in mind to what degree do you think a real handy, mechanically and electrically skilled homeowner can perform work on their own heating and cooling for their home?


    I'd say anything except opening the cooling system. Unless, of course, they have the proper equipment and certification. I don't care what others do in their own home.
    Not here for a long time, just a good time

    XXXXXX

  14. #14
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    I believe that 90% of the work in a new system can be preformed by a DIY'er, under the guidance of an HVAC contractor. UNDER THE GUIDANCE OF AN HVAC CONTRACTOR. I have done several of these jobs, love em. I engineer and advise the DIY'er, he gets a good system and I make as much as installing my-self, PRICELESS!

  15. #15
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    I think it would be nice on here if when a homeowner asks something you don't want to answer, don't. But don't get all over them about reading the rules, leave that to the moderators to decide if they want to stop the thread. Our industry has enough bad press with the bad apples we have working in it, we don't want homeowners leaving here with a bad impression of us. - Bald Loonies reply from above.

    I think so too. Just read the thread from the homeowner trying to diagnose his Lennox board fault. Merely wanted to know about the 120v and 24v side. Now, had he posted with a Ms name, 20 posters would have given elaborate details and information. Most would have ended up recommending getting a service call. This homeowner even quoted the rules and he was right. But, he went away empty handed. How will he feel towards the industry as a whole?

    Maybe, since this site has evolved so much, it is time to have a DIYer category where those in the field who want to be helpful can.

    I can purchase a DVD that explains how to fix almost anything or the Dummies guide to whatever. Does this put a mass of professionals out of work?

    Better to lead a future customer along than to beat him mercilessly with your keyboard.




    [Edited by MikeJ on 03-14-2005 at 06:30 AM]

  16. #16
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    Personally, I'm glad to take the time to try to help DIYers on these boards. I try to draw the line at encouraging people to do things that might get them in trouble.

    I try to be helpful to people who call me on my business phone line, but also am concerned that people will make errors that will cause property damage or injury and get me sued. So I limit the advice I will give.

    Also, I commonly find taking phone calls to be a pain, which may limit the advice I give. Also, I don't like giving advice to people who argue with me or don't want to hear what they are told.

    I was asked to inspect the new furnace installation done by an acquaintance who is an auto mechanic. He did pretty well, but the DIY aspect was apparent in some of the decisions made. For example, he had the shutoff valves to the gas range behind the wall in the furnace compartment, and behind the furnace as well where it was almost inaccessable. He had the furnace shutoff valve a ways back where it was possible to get at but difficult, and a long flex connector to get from the shutoff valve into the furnace compartment to the furnace gas valve.

    Also, I would have made the return ductwork large, just eyeballing it. And the sheet metal for the return air would come off vertically when there was inadequate clearance for the flex duct he wanted to use to make a 90 degree turn. I suggested he buy a new sheet metal fitting such that the takeoff would come from the side, rather than from on top. That would avoid the 90 degree turn.


    So--- there were problems he wasn't especially good at recognizing. Of course, that's why he asked me to come over and look over the installation. But I looked for significant problems, not relatively minor ones.

    In short, his installation wont be as good as that done by a pro (at least a pro worthy of the name), but it will be safe and do the job OK..



    Seattle Pioneer

  17. #17
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    Maybe DIYer questions could be limited to those with "yes" or "no" answers. That way, if there is a question that cannot be answered Y or N, they would have to have a pro look at it, bid the job, do the work with appropriate compensation. If the question can be answered Y or N, then the DIYer is most likely able to do it himself.

    I could be wrong. I was wrong once before...I thought I had made a mistake but I had not.
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  18. #18
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    I love to the help the poor slobs as well.
    I would be up for a true-false help area, if that works out we could upgrade to mulitple choice someday.
    Hey cockroach, don't bug me! ©

  19. #19
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    Need help troubleshooting gas furnace - 16 replies

    This recent one is a good example of the problem with helping a DIY'er.

    Dice: Do you thinks a Y/N'er approach would work here?
    This guy is over his head and should not be walked thru a repair. 1. Furnace has been neglected for at least 3 yrs
    2. "I changed out the t'stat and that didn't help.

    Then after a few of his posts....general replys follow: check filter, sensor,, and other guesses.

    And then the poster disappears and the posts continue.

    I see it both ways. Yes help them, no don't help them.


  20. #20
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    Originally posted by MikeJ

    Dice: Do you thinks a Y/N'er approach would work here?


    And then the poster disappears and the posts continue.



    Not really.
    He blew himself up, too bad.
    Hey cockroach, don't bug me! ©

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