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  1. #53

    energy

    Doc what makes you think geoexchange systems cost that much above other units, and you need to figure the cost of reducing the morgage buy putting the saving to the loan it and the ever rising cost of energy.

    Some one said something about unit life cycle. I have units I installed in the late 1970s still working. They would even pay for themselves if the HO would change them with the new units.

  2. #54
    I am posting the following link as a dissemination of free information as opposed to a solicitation of business for the "Geo-Heads" amongst us. I believe it addresses the loop side cost with geo-synergistic twist. Not all details are given on the site, (automation logic, evaporative cooling, EWT efficiencies, water chemistry, etc.) but I would be glad to share my knowledge for those who would like to duplicate such a system by there own devices........ http://www.longislandgeothermalenergy.com

  3. #55
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Northern Indiana
    Posts
    1,406
    Just felt the need to add my 2 cents. I work for a small company in Indiana. We install open loop Geo systems on a regular basis. Yes, they are expensive up front but I do believe they can be worth the hassle. Just like anything else, the technology is constantly being improved upon. We have not had even 1 unsatisfied customer in 10 years. Everyone we install them for raves about them when I go to do annual services. One customer has a 4800 square foot 2 story home on a basement that is about 10 years old. We installed a open loop Geo w/ variable speed motor, 3 stage heat/2 stage cooling programmable t-stat. His monthly electric bill is, on average, $110.00. I think its just a matter of personal preference. I think there are contractors who don't have the technical ability to work and them and therefore bad mouth them. I also think that a lot of guys who think they can just throw them in wind up screwing things up for the customer. As far as any 16 SEER heat pump being as efficient as any GEO, I would certainly debate that but people's minds are already made up.

  4. #56
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    7,680
    First of all... Ive said it before and I'll say it again. The Geothermal units ARE more efficient.

    Now, GEO, were speaking frankly here. Lets talk about the last job you installed a Geothermal system in.

    Tell us about the home, load calcs, floor plan so we can try to make a comparison. How much was the HVAC bill for that job? Be honest please.

    My thought is that we use the information you provide to determine the price of installing a 14 SEER air to air system in the home with comparable ductwork etc. An even install if you will. We will assume you do top notch work.

    Look, my numbers were hypothetical, change the 8k to 10k if you want, change the 20k to 15k if you want. Even a 5k difference when calclulated into the true cost of money over time is going to be significant.

    Am I suggesting people stay away from Geothermal? Absolutely not, I think they are great for certain areas of the continent. But, as a consumer as well as an HVAC guy I think its fair we look at the true cost of money. I'm not doubting or questioning the energy savings, dont get me wrong, but I am questioning how one will affect my overall financial being.

    I'm not bad mouthing them and I have installed and serviced them. Premium systems of any type, properly installed rarely get many complaints. Any premium product, regardless of the condenser, when installed properly can provide very comfortable conditions. Granted there are indeed energy differences we all agree to.


    [Edited by docholiday on 03-12-2005 at 12:53 PM]

  5. #57
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Niantic, Illinois
    Posts
    545
    Originally posted by daytonafan
    Just felt the need to add my 2 cents. I work for a small company in Indiana. We install open loop Geo systems on a regular basis. Yes, they are expensive up front but I do believe they can be worth the hassle. Just like anything else, the technology is constantly being improved upon. We have not had even 1 unsatisfied customer in 10 years. Everyone we install them for raves about them when I go to do annual services. One customer has a 4800 square foot 2 story home on a basement that is about 10 years old. We installed a open loop Geo w/ variable speed motor, 3 stage heat/2 stage cooling programmable t-stat. His monthly electric bill is, on average, $110.00. I think its just a matter of personal preference. I think there are contractors who don't have the technical ability to work and them and therefore bad mouth them. I also think that a lot of guys who think they can just throw them in wind up screwing things up for the customer. As far as any 16 SEER heat pump being as efficient as any GEO, I would certainly debate that but people's minds are already made up.
    I didn't say 16 seer, I siad 18 seer. If I siad as efficient, I misspoke, nearly as efficient with much less up front cost. The efficiency difference would not be substantial enough for the geothermal to pay for itself. I am also talking in central Illinois where heatpumps in general aren't fantastic because they spend so much time on back up because our seasons are so far out of whack from each other. 900 cooling hours, 2000 heating hours. If you size fr the heat, you get a very clammy, humid home in the summer. Therefore you use plenty of backup heat.I also install geothermal, and people do like them. I like them. I just wouldn't personaly own one in my area. If I were further South, sure.

  6. #58
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Niantic, Illinois
    Posts
    545
    Originally posted by stonefinger
    Docholiday....Here are some numbers to gnaw on:

    Given Parameters:
    A) 4600 sq ft house 6yrs old
    B) Heat gain 58060 btu/hr
    C) Geo to be used for cooling only: Zone 1 cool house waste heat to pool; Zone 2 heat pool waste cooling to atmosphere
    D) No existing ductwork
    E) Oil Fired hydronic baseboard (existing) for heating to remain


    Material Installed:
    5 Ton water source heat pump..................$2300
    High Velocity air handler and associated duct.$3600
    Zone Dampers and Logic Controls...............$800
    Electric High and Low voltage.................$400
    Geo Open Loop To Pool.........................$300
    Misc..........................................$100 0

    Sub Total.$8400

    40% Mark Up On $8400.....$11,760

    Less $800/Ton Geo Utility Rebate.$4000

    Geo Total.$7760

    72 Man Hours @ $150/hr.$10,800

    Total Geo Cost With Labor $18,560

    The average of 3 estimates by the boys in the ASHP
    (Air Source Heat Pump) camp was $18,900.

    So here is the geo math condensed: (pun intended)
    ASHP Installed:.... $18,900
    WSHP Geo Installed: $18,560
    ----------Savings At Time Of Installation By Using Geo.... $340
    The pricing on the geo is in line with my pricing, but the pricing on the airsource is about $3000 higher than a similar job i just did in 18 seer equipment.

  7. #59
    Berad.......
    The pricing I posted was meant only to bring some "Relative Perspective" to ASHP vs WSHP at the request of Docholiday. How the ASHP avg was determined by others and how you determine your pricing is related to many variables. Suffice to say, I believe one can conclude that geo may make a run at the ASHP yet. Also the air handler and duct quotes were based on HV (Unico) which actually may bring the pricing closer to yours if you did in fact use conventional........

  8. #60
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Niantic, Illinois
    Posts
    545
    Yes, it was conventional and not high velocity. I also realized after posting that I crossed the pricing info line.

  9. #61
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    pa/de
    Posts
    19
    Docholiday:
    I read your post with the break down by costs, interest rates, etc. I think you left something out though. The tax paid on your money in the bank and the tax saved when paying the interest on the loan. That may have a more dramatic affect then you might think.

  10. #62
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    PA
    Posts
    68,773
    And if that house didn't have a pool, how much more would the wells have cost, 60 to 80%?
    Contractor locator map

    How-to-apply-for-Professional

    How many times must one fix something before it is fixed?

  11. #63
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    7,680
    Just a moment ago, there was a post after beenthere.

  12. #64
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    PA
    Posts
    68,773
    Originally posted by docholiday
    Just a moment ago, there was a post after beenthere.
    I thought that too.

    Contractor locator map

    How-to-apply-for-Professional

    How many times must one fix something before it is fixed?

  13. #65
    [ deleted by BC-1
    we like to help homeowners in need of technical help and information.
    However, we can't help you with pricing questions, please do not post or ask
    about prices.

    It is in the Forum Rules

    BC-1 ]


    [Edited by BC1 on 03-14-2005 at 12:14 PM]

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