GEO THERMAL GROUND SOURCE HEAT PUMP

[docholiday]

Yeah well the diamond council came up with the brilliant plan for me to spend 2 months salary on an engagement ring too.

[geoexchangeman]

I have been installing water source heat pumps for years. Anyone who says they are not worth it and will not pay for the upfront cost does not know what he is talking about. I beleive everyone who is building a building of any kind should install Geothermo exchange systems today. Find a good geothermo designer and go with it. You will save about 1000 to 1200 a year over LP gas or oil and about 400 to 500 a year over the best air source heat pump in a 2500 sq foot home. And the world will be better because of the oil we will not burn.

[schmuck]

You guys have awaken a sleeping giant now!!

[berad]

Originally posted by du mech eng

Originally posted by berad
I swear, the 18 seer heatpump of anuy manufacturer is just slightly less efficient than a geothermal. But by the time you compare the installation costs, you'll never see the payback on the geothermal.

i'd like to see some support of this statement. we do these types of systems for schools all the time. i've done several life cycle cost analyses and usually see simple payback periods around the 6 year mark with an internal rate of return around 20%. serveral of these schools have been operating for a couple of years and their energy usage is right in line with the life cycle studies. pretty good investment if you ask me but these analyses are for schools ranging from 35,000 sf to 300,000 sf, in the residential world you might not see these returns.

My info is based on a chart given to me by my Trane rep. It could be a bit jaded under those circumstances, but I am talking about 2000 to 5000 sq. ft. homes.

[berad]

Originally posted by geoexchangeman
I have been installing water source heat pumps for years. Anyone who says they are not worth it and will not pay for the upfront cost does not know what he is talking about. I beleive everyone who is building a building of any kind should install Geothermo exchange systems today. Find a good geothermo designer and go with it. You will save about 1000 to 1200 a year over LP gas or oil and about 400 to 500 a year over the best air source heat pump in a 2500 sq foot home. And the world will be better because of the oil we will not burn.

And I agree, it will save you a bunch of money over a gas, lp, or oil furnace. But in central Illinois you spend so much time on back up heat, an 18 seer heatpump is just as good.

[geoexchangeman]

I am a Trane and Florida Heatpump sales person, My trane rap
says they don't sale geothermo units Its natural your Trane rap would down Geoexchange

[docholiday]

I'm going to play the devils advocate here. Lets figure this fair and square using the thread's exsisting numbers.

With high efficiency heat pump installed in new contruction vs. the Geothermal one.

Correct my numbers but understand we are in the open forum

8k versus 20k. Installed prices.

Difference 12k

12k added to mortgage increases payment on a 30 year loan by 71.95 (30 year fixed at 6.0%apr).

Over that time you will spend on that same 12k difference interest alone of $13,902 on top of the original 12k principal. Thats $25,902 extra spent.

71.95 per month x 12 = 863.40

863.40 - 500 (potential energy savings) = 363.40 per year in hvac costs more to own the geothermal.

We agree that one can save lets say 500 a year in heating costs... how long is the equipment going to last? Say 20 years? I'll give you 25.

25 x 500 = 12,500

25,902-12,500 = 13,402 more for the geothermal.

Yeah I know people wouldn't finance the installation into their mortgage (yes they do).

Why dont we pay cash for the system? OK.

So I take 20k out of my savings account assuming I am stupid enought to keep that kind of cash in a passbook account. We'll also consider paying for the other system cash to be fair.


20 in a passbook savings acount will earn a minimum of 1.5% (ha!). Compounded monthly of course.

20k at 1.5% compounded monthly for 20 years will be a cash reduction of 26,692. the 8k at the same rate will cost you 10,796 in lost investment. Thats almost 16,000 more lost investment capital for the geothermal.

Just to have some fun lets say we are smart enough not to keep that kind of cash in a passbook savings account but a CD with an APR of 4%. For the 8k, thats 17,780 in lost investment! I hate to look at the 20k, but why not? 20k invested at 4% apr for 20 years is 44,451 for a differnce of 26,671 in added cost for the geothermal. 20*500(annual energy savings) = 12,500. subtract that from the added cost and realize you over spent 14,171 for it.

[nathan9999]

Doc, that's why I enjoy your input. You mix facts with humor.

[jrc2905]

I have been in contact with a local builder who wants me to get involved in the service of the heat pumps installed in his new construction by an out of state company. In Mass. there are not a lot of people with experience in geothermal heat pumps. I will have to go to training provided by the company. At first I just thought of it as something different to do. But with rising heat cost and predictions of oil going for over $100.00 a barrel his approach makes sense, he builds his houses with ten inch walls and said the cost for heating and cooling is $600.00 a year. Not bad for New England, it is 3/11/05 and the snow is still up to the bottom of the stop signs in some areas.

[geoexchangeman]

I am a Trane and Florida Heatpump sales person, My trane rap
says they don't sale geothermo units Its natural your Trane rap would down Geoexchange

[docholiday]

Off topic... sort of.

How do you guys distingush how much of a HO's electrib bill is for the HVAC and how much is toward lights, dryer, the wife's curling iron and all the other household stuff?

I mean you really cant just go by seasonal changes, we wear alot more clothes and cook indoors and the lights are on longer in the winter versus the summer.

Any thoughts?

Geo,

I am not sure if that last post was directed at me, but I have no clue who the local trane rep is anywhere. The rational I used is something you might see from a savvy HO who might question lifecycle cost. If it wasnt meant for me, sorry.

Did I mention, that I still think they are great technology (maybe 3 or 4 times).

Hehe... brain still spinning here but how much gas (fossil fuel) does the excavator use or the well driller when trenching or drilling out the yard? Nevermind, that complicates the issue.

[Edited by docholiday on 03-11-2005 at 09:19 PM]

[geoexchangeman]

I have my hvac unit on its own meter so I can know what I use for heating and cooling.

[geoexchangeman]

Doc what makes you think geoexchange systems cost that much above other units, and you need to figure the cost of reducing the morgage buy putting the saving to the loan it and the ever rising cost of energy.

Some one said something about unit life cycle. I have units I installed in the late 1970s still working. They would even pay for themselves if the HO would change them with the new units.

[stonefinger]

I am posting the following link as a dissemination of free information as opposed to a solicitation of business for the "Geo-Heads" amongst us. I believe it addresses the loop side cost with geo-synergistic twist. Not all details are given on the site, (automation logic, evaporative cooling, EWT efficiencies, water chemistry, etc.) but I would be glad to share my knowledge for those who would like to duplicate such a system by there own devices........ http://www.longislandgeothermalenergy.com

[daytonafan]

Just felt the need to add my 2 cents. I work for a small company in Indiana. We install open loop Geo systems on a regular basis. Yes, they are expensive up front but I do believe they can be worth the hassle. Just like anything else, the technology is constantly being improved upon. We have not had even 1 unsatisfied customer in 10 years. Everyone we install them for raves about them when I go to do annual services. One customer has a 4800 square foot 2 story home on a basement that is about 10 years old. We installed a open loop Geo w/ variable speed motor, 3 stage heat/2 stage cooling programmable t-stat. His monthly electric bill is, on average, $110.00. I think its just a matter of personal preference. I think there are contractors who don't have the technical ability to work and them and therefore bad mouth them. I also think that a lot of guys who think they can just throw them in wind up screwing things up for the customer. As far as any 16 SEER heat pump being as efficient as any GEO, I would certainly debate that but people's minds are already made up.

[docholiday]

First of all... Ive said it before and I'll say it again. The Geothermal units ARE more efficient.

Now, GEO, were speaking frankly here. Lets talk about the last job you installed a Geothermal system in.

Tell us about the home, load calcs, floor plan so we can try to make a comparison. How much was the HVAC bill for that job? Be honest please.

My thought is that we use the information you provide to determine the price of installing a 14 SEER air to air system in the home with comparable ductwork etc. An even install if you will. We will assume you do top notch work.

Look, my numbers were hypothetical, change the 8k to 10k if you want, change the 20k to 15k if you want. Even a 5k difference when calclulated into the true cost of money over time is going to be significant.

Am I suggesting people stay away from Geothermal? Absolutely not, I think they are great for certain areas of the continent. But, as a consumer as well as an HVAC guy I think its fair we look at the true cost of money. I'm not doubting or questioning the energy savings, dont get me wrong, but I am questioning how one will affect my overall financial being.

I'm not bad mouthing them and I have installed and serviced them. Premium systems of any type, properly installed rarely get many complaints. Any premium product, regardless of the condenser, when installed properly can provide very comfortable conditions. Granted there are indeed energy differences we all agree to.


[Edited by docholiday on 03-12-2005 at 12:53 PM]

[berad]

Originally posted by daytonafan
Just felt the need to add my 2 cents. I work for a small company in Indiana. We install open loop Geo systems on a regular basis. Yes, they are expensive up front but I do believe they can be worth the hassle. Just like anything else, the technology is constantly being improved upon. We have not had even 1 unsatisfied customer in 10 years. Everyone we install them for raves about them when I go to do annual services. One customer has a 4800 square foot 2 story home on a basement that is about 10 years old. We installed a open loop Geo w/ variable speed motor, 3 stage heat/2 stage cooling programmable t-stat. His monthly electric bill is, on average, $110.00. I think its just a matter of personal preference. I think there are contractors who don't have the technical ability to work and them and therefore bad mouth them. I also think that a lot of guys who think they can just throw them in wind up screwing things up for the customer. As far as any 16 SEER heat pump being as efficient as any GEO, I would certainly debate that but people's minds are already made up.

I didn't say 16 seer, I siad 18 seer. If I siad as efficient, I misspoke, nearly as efficient with much less up front cost. The efficiency difference would not be substantial enough for the geothermal to pay for itself. I am also talking in central Illinois where heatpumps in general aren't fantastic because they spend so much time on back up because our seasons are so far out of whack from each other. 900 cooling hours, 2000 heating hours. If you size fr the heat, you get a very clammy, humid home in the summer. Therefore you use plenty of backup heat.I also install geothermal, and people do like them. I like them. I just wouldn't personaly own one in my area. If I were further South, sure.

[berad]

Originally posted by stonefinger
Docholiday....Here are some numbers to gnaw on:

Given Parameters:
A) 4600 sq ft house 6yrs old
B) Heat gain 58060 btu/hr
C) Geo to be used for cooling only: Zone 1 cool house waste heat to pool; Zone 2 heat pool waste cooling to atmosphere
D) No existing ductwork
E) Oil Fired hydronic baseboard (existing) for heating to remain


Material Installed:
5 Ton water source heat pump..................$2300
High Velocity air handler and associated duct.$3600
Zone Dampers and Logic Controls...............$800
Electric High and Low voltage.................$400
Geo Open Loop To Pool.........................$300
Misc..........................................$100 0

Sub Total.$8400

40% Mark Up On $8400.....$11,760

Less $800/Ton Geo Utility Rebate.$4000

Geo Total.$7760

72 Man Hours @ $150/hr.$10,800

Total Geo Cost With Labor $18,560

The average of 3 estimates by the boys in the ASHP
(Air Source Heat Pump) camp was $18,900.

So here is the geo math condensed: (pun intended)
ASHP Installed:.... $18,900
WSHP Geo Installed: $18,560
----------Savings At Time Of Installation By Using Geo.... $340

The pricing on the geo is in line with my pricing, but the pricing on the airsource is about $3000 higher than a similar job i just did in 18 seer equipment.

[stonefinger]

Berad.......
The pricing I posted was meant only to bring some "Relative Perspective" to ASHP vs WSHP at the request of Docholiday. How the ASHP avg was determined by others and how you determine your pricing is related to many variables. Suffice to say, I believe one can conclude that geo may make a run at the ASHP yet. Also the air handler and duct quotes were based on HV (Unico) which actually may bring the pricing closer to yours if you did in fact use conventional........

[berad]

Yes, it was conventional and not high velocity. I also realized after posting that I crossed the pricing info line.