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  1. #40
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Posts
    1,841
    According to the Geothermal Heat Pump Consortium, a geothermal system can lower your heating bills up to 50 percent and lower your cooling bills up to 30 percent, when compared to a conventional system.



  2. #41
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    7,680
    Yeah well the diamond council came up with the brilliant plan for me to spend 2 months salary on an engagement ring too.

  3. #42

    Cool

    I have been installing water source heat pumps for years. Anyone who says they are not worth it and will not pay for the upfront cost does not know what he is talking about. I beleive everyone who is building a building of any kind should install Geothermo exchange systems today. Find a good geothermo designer and go with it. You will save about 1000 to 1200 a year over LP gas or oil and about 400 to 500 a year over the best air source heat pump in a 2500 sq foot home. And the world will be better because of the oil we will not burn.

  4. #43
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    163

    UH OH

    You guys have awaken a sleeping giant now!!

  5. #44
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Niantic, Illinois
    Posts
    545
    Originally posted by du mech eng
    Originally posted by berad
    I swear, the 18 seer heatpump of anuy manufacturer is just slightly less efficient than a geothermal. But by the time you compare the installation costs, you'll never see the payback on the geothermal.
    i'd like to see some support of this statement. we do these types of systems for schools all the time. i've done several life cycle cost analyses and usually see simple payback periods around the 6 year mark with an internal rate of return around 20%. serveral of these schools have been operating for a couple of years and their energy usage is right in line with the life cycle studies. pretty good investment if you ask me but these analyses are for schools ranging from 35,000 sf to 300,000 sf, in the residential world you might not see these returns.
    My info is based on a chart given to me by my Trane rep. It could be a bit jaded under those circumstances, but I am talking about 2000 to 5000 sq. ft. homes.

  6. #45
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Niantic, Illinois
    Posts
    545
    Originally posted by geoexchangeman
    I have been installing water source heat pumps for years. Anyone who says they are not worth it and will not pay for the upfront cost does not know what he is talking about. I beleive everyone who is building a building of any kind should install Geothermo exchange systems today. Find a good geothermo designer and go with it. You will save about 1000 to 1200 a year over LP gas or oil and about 400 to 500 a year over the best air source heat pump in a 2500 sq foot home. And the world will be better because of the oil we will not burn.
    And I agree, it will save you a bunch of money over a gas, lp, or oil furnace. But in central Illinois you spend so much time on back up heat, an 18 seer heatpump is just as good.

  7. #46
    I am a Trane and Florida Heatpump sales person, My trane rap
    says they don't sale geothermo units Its natural your Trane rap would down Geoexchange

  8. #47
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    7,680
    I'm going to play the devils advocate here. Lets figure this fair and square using the thread's exsisting numbers.

    With high efficiency heat pump installed in new contruction vs. the Geothermal one.

    Correct my numbers but understand we are in the open forum

    8k versus 20k. Installed prices.

    Difference 12k

    12k added to mortgage increases payment on a 30 year loan by 71.95 (30 year fixed at 6.0%apr).

    Over that time you will spend on that same 12k difference interest alone of $13,902 on top of the original 12k principal. Thats $25,902 extra spent.

    71.95 per month x 12 = 863.40

    863.40 - 500 (potential energy savings) = 363.40 per year in hvac costs more to own the geothermal.

    We agree that one can save lets say 500 a year in heating costs... how long is the equipment going to last? Say 20 years? I'll give you 25.

    25 x 500 = 12,500

    25,902-12,500 = 13,402 more for the geothermal.

    Yeah I know people wouldn't finance the installation into their mortgage (yes they do).

    Why dont we pay cash for the system? OK.

    So I take 20k out of my savings account assuming I am stupid enought to keep that kind of cash in a passbook account. We'll also consider paying for the other system cash to be fair.


    20 in a passbook savings acount will earn a minimum of 1.5% (ha!). Compounded monthly of course.

    20k at 1.5% compounded monthly for 20 years will be a cash reduction of 26,692. the 8k at the same rate will cost you 10,796 in lost investment. Thats almost 16,000 more lost investment capital for the geothermal.

    Just to have some fun lets say we are smart enough not to keep that kind of cash in a passbook savings account but a CD with an APR of 4%. For the 8k, thats 17,780 in lost investment! I hate to look at the 20k, but why not? 20k invested at 4% apr for 20 years is 44,451 for a differnce of 26,671 in added cost for the geothermal. 20*500(annual energy savings) = 12,500. subtract that from the added cost and realize you over spent 14,171 for it.

  9. #48
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Bakersfield, CA
    Posts
    209
    Doc, that's why I enjoy your input. You mix facts with humor.

  10. #49
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Posts
    391
    I have been in contact with a local builder who wants me to get involved in the service of the heat pumps installed in his new construction by an out of state company. In Mass. there are not a lot of people with experience in geothermal heat pumps. I will have to go to training provided by the company. At first I just thought of it as something different to do. But with rising heat cost and predictions of oil going for over $100.00 a barrel his approach makes sense, he builds his houses with ten inch walls and said the cost for heating and cooling is $600.00 a year. Not bad for New England, it is 3/11/05 and the snow is still up to the bottom of the stop signs in some areas.
    The obvious is obvious

  11. #50
    I am a Trane and Florida Heatpump sales person, My trane rap
    says they don't sale geothermo units Its natural your Trane rap would down Geoexchange

  12. #51
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    7,680
    Off topic... sort of.

    How do you guys distingush how much of a HO's electrib bill is for the HVAC and how much is toward lights, dryer, the wife's curling iron and all the other household stuff?

    I mean you really cant just go by seasonal changes, we wear alot more clothes and cook indoors and the lights are on longer in the winter versus the summer.

    Any thoughts?

    Geo,

    I am not sure if that last post was directed at me, but I have no clue who the local trane rep is anywhere. The rational I used is something you might see from a savvy HO who might question lifecycle cost. If it wasnt meant for me, sorry.

    Did I mention, that I still think they are great technology (maybe 3 or 4 times).

    Hehe... brain still spinning here but how much gas (fossil fuel) does the excavator use or the well driller when trenching or drilling out the yard? Nevermind, that complicates the issue.

    [Edited by docholiday on 03-11-2005 at 09:19 PM]

  13. #52

    energy

    I have my hvac unit on its own meter so I can know what I use for heating and cooling.

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