The Pain of Payne Furnace

[kayac2005]

I have a Payne 90% efficiency furnace, model 398AAZ upflow that is approximately 15 yrs old. I've had a professional heating co. inform me that the heat exchanger is cracked and exhaust is being returned out of the burner assembly. I (and several others) have smelled the odor and know the problem exists. Is there anything other than a crack in the heat exchanger that could cause the excess exhaust to be venting through the house? Such as an improperly vented terminal to outside?(which leaves excess exhaust in the chamber?) It has been explained to me as a KNOWN issue but I want to be CERTAIN before I opt for an entirely new furnace.

Incidentally, any opinions on Rheem 90% efficency would be appreciated as that is the unit I'm considering.

[framehvac]

I've had a professional heating co. inform me that the heat exchanger is cracked and exhaust is being returned out of the burner assembly


Is there a reason why you don't believe them?

[tinner73]

go with that Rheem RGRA model.

[framehvac]

Originally posted by tinner73
go with that Rheem RGRA model.

Here we go with the rheem job again.

[kayac2005]

Yes because I need 2nd opinions on everything home related.

1) this model has been worked on by other hvac companies and their lack of experience caused more problems.
2) there is no evidence to prove it is a crack in the heat exchanger since we can't exactly OPEN it and look, can we?
3) We have had a problem with the vent to outside which caused water to backflow into the unit and stop working.
4) And everyone ALWAYS recommends replacement of the unit regardless of what the real problem is.

Is that enough reasons?

[framehvac]

Originally posted by kayac2005
Yes because I need 2nd opinions on everything home related.

1) this model has been worked on by other hvac companies and their lack of experience caused more problems.
2) there is no evidence to prove it is a crack in the heat exchanger since we can't exactly OPEN it and look, can we?
3) We have had a problem with the vent to outside which caused water to backflow into the unit and stop working.
4) And everyone ALWAYS recommends replacement of the unit regardless of what the real problem is.

Is that enough reasons?

Yes but we are not their so post some photos of it I would just call a new hvac company for a second opinion.


We have had a problem with the vent to outside which caused water to backflow into the unit and stop working.

Why didn't the hvac company fix it?

[kayac2005]

Post pictures of what? The smell of exhaust?
I can't prove the heat exchanger is cracked, that's why I'm asking if anyone KNOWS of this because I was TOLD it was COMMON with Payne 90% efficiency models of this type and when someone tells me something is KNOWN I would expect people such as yourselves to confirm it for me.
Yes I will contact another dealer to give 2nd opinion tomorrow but since it is 7 pm PST lets all just assume I'm making this query for information to help make my ultimate decision.

Is there anything else about a Payne furnace that would cause EXHAUST to be returned out of our heat registers AND the burner assembly unit? [Anything other than a cracked heat exchanger]

[karsthuntr]

It is not hard to open unit and remove heat exchanger. It does take awhile and you will have to pay if the heat exchanger is cracked. If they pull it and it's not cracked than they should do it for free. I would. But I am positive when I find a crack.

You should be able to check heat exchanger without removing it but I can't see your situation.

[tinner73]

we can't see what you have. yet, you want us to tell you what is wrong. HXs go bad and 15/yrs is a pretty good run. you have two options.......call for another opinion....or forget it and live with the consequences. if you have CO dumping into your house i'd have the furnace replaced ASAP. if you're not sure confirm it. call the gas co. out. where i live they show up under an hour. i hope your smart enough to have some CO detectors. Rheem is still a good furnace.





so you know...Payne is Carrier's bottom grade equipment.

[kayac2005]

Very helpful! I will get the next dealer to do just that.
Much appreciated

[kayac2005]

Thanks for the feedback re: Rheem.
I've only had the house a couple of years and the Payne unit came with, I found out today that Payne, Bryant, Carrier and perhaps another furnace brand are all made by the same manufacturer.

[Gunnery Sergeant Hartman]

You are dumping money into a sinking ship.

15 years? Break open the dusty wallet.

[karsthuntr]

I do have to agree with Yellodot. I would bite the bullet and replace.

Rheem is the best brand.

If you call another contractor you may have to pay weather it's cracked or not. Unless they tell you it's cracked.

[kayac2005]

I do believe it is a "stinking" ship. If it is ok with you, could you help me with one last question and I'll be out of your "air" for the evening...

I was told that my house does not have a return air duct.
It doesn't surprise me to hear this since not much about this home appears to be done properly. Could you explain the benefits of the return air duct particularly since I will be considering the new Rheem furnace? I am not HVAC saavy so I do not know what impact no return air has had/will have... Thx, much.

[framehvac]

Originally posted by kayac2005
I do believe it is a "stinking" ship. If it is ok with you, could you help me with one last question and I'll be out of your "air" for the evening...

I was told that my house does not have a return air duct.
It doesn't surprise me to hear this since not much about this home appears to be done properly. Could you explain the benefits of the return air duct particularly since I will be considering the new Rheem furnace? I am not HVAC saavy so I do not know what impact no return air has had/will have... Thx, much.

First Trane is best were is your filter at?

[karsthuntr]

I don't think there is enough memory on this server for me to tell you about proper duct design. Just trust your installer to install the furnace correctly.

You may not need return duct but it will be noisy. If furnace is in basement than you do need return duct. Like I said I am not the one to explain it to you.

[gje1]

You can't smell CO. I would question even getting CO into the house with a 90% furnace since it's induced draft, sounds like yours is. You could have flame roll out with communication between the fan compartment and the space the unit is installed in which may cause climate air and exhaust that could mix but even then you have safety devices to protect against that. Your HVAC Company should have explained their diagnosis for determining a crack is present and if they can’t start asking some question. Your local Gas Company won't be able to help you if you have a sealed combustion or serpentine heat exchanger. These types of HX require tools that we are not equipped with. If they can visually inspect a HX than that would be an impartial source to go to. Bottom line here is, whatever means they used to determine a crack should be conveyed to you and that should be proven to you. The answer should not be it's the source of a smell! I agree with some of the others, find another HVAC dealer.

[kayac2005]

Ok that's extremely helpful. GJE, I've gotten many conflicting reports on this unit and yours has confirmed this needs to be followed up by a Payne dealer in my area to get a full diagnostic. It is an upflow model, in the basement of my split level (1976). So that might explain no air return. The smell is was what concerned us because as soon as we open the door to the room where the furnace is located, we would smell this burning oily-like smell, so I figured it wasn't a gas leak since that's smell is "rotten eggs". After the unit was operating, stopped and the fan stopped, the odor was most noticeable at the four burners/burner assembly area. These are also kind of black and sooty looking. Anyway, I appreciate all the feedback here.

[karsthuntr]

L.P.?

You have a plugged heat exchanger, IMHO.

[summit]

If the heat exchanger is plugged and sooted up, it could take a very long time to come up with "proof" of a crack. Sometimes the best decision is to make a diagnosis based on assumptions.