help in undersanding energy efficient issues

[davidki]

Congradulations, you get a star for the refrig, that is the type of info I am looking for, Our cost per kw here in Tennessee is 6.5 per, then, as usage goes up, the cost actually goes down to 6 cents. Id appreciate it if you have the ability to do some calcs I'd give you a call on the phone and give you my info. I am interested in the variable speed air handlers because of noise, I think they would be nice, but again, I can't get a straight answer on the upgrad cost from the single speed to the variable speed, it just seems like the more questions I ask the more the folks seem to back away from the answers.. I guess I just ask to many questions.. but for me, it' a big investmetn, I want to make the right one..

By the way, if you would like you can email me at davidki@yahoo.com

Thanks so much for the info!

[beenthere]

Part of the cost answer may be that you were quoted builders grade units on the 10 seer, and higher quality units on the 14 seer.

[davidki]

Thanks for the input, I agree with you on the "Builders grade" units, but all I am asking is for justification to go to the upgrade at a 70% cost upgrade and how much it will save me. is it that difficult to figure out? All I get is that I will save money if I upgrade...Ok, how much will I save and over what as a base line, Trane says 20% max, and again, how do I justify the 70% cost increase short term or long term.

Ya know, I'm starting to wonder if there isn anyone in this business that can figure this out... I sure am striking out with the contractors and the electric company!

[beenthere]

No way to give you a hard number on savings.
You already know your not going to get your money back on that upgrade.
Higher seer equipment usually has more bells and whistles, so if thats what you want, get the 14 seer, if thats not what you want, go with 12 seer.

[davidki]

Maybe I'm to much of an engineer, but I'd think that there would be some way to estimate the usuage costs, just plug in the KW price and how many hours of opperation. I would suspect that there is a power draw on the units and if one could plug in the use for the 10, 12 and other units I wonder if an estimate could be acheived..

I think I've beat this dead horse to much already. now I'l just have to get some prices on the different options and decided how much I am willing to spend on the bells and whistles..

Thanks to all you that did reply one way or another.
Dave

[cem-bsee]

how do you think that ANYONE can predict what the DegreeDays will be for next month, next yr, next decade?

You can get & compare BIN data, at least for bigger cities --- you can get an analysis done by someone in commercial mechanical engineering -- just cost $$$ and time --

how did you decide which car to buy to get the least operating expense, esp wrt gas mileage? How much $ did you expect to save? How much have you saved? -- same concept --

[davidki]

Well, Im not trying to be a pain, but, I just thought if the companines can say that X seer is 10, 20, 30 percent more than X seer that using a control model one could get an idea of costs. I do understand it's not that easy to figure out, but hey, this is the age of the computer and I"d think that a model could be generated along with the load calcs to estimate costs. Perhaps the units are just not that predictable.

I would think that if you took a 10 seer 5 ton unit that it draws X amount of electricity, and that amount times the cost per KW (which is 6.5cents) in my area one could come up with an estimateed cost. Now when you go to the 14 seer that 5 ton unit will use X amount of electricty and times 6.5 cents I'd come up with the difference, perhaps that's just the way my mind works.

As for cars, the industry for cars gives a average MPG, it's listed on each window with a range, for example, my car shows a 24 - 28 MPG range, but, 3 trips lately I got over 30 mpg. now that made me happy..

I guess I can use the 10%, 20% and other "Savings" factor and try to justify the extra costs but, right now I've not been able to see a justification of 70% increase in equiptment cost.

I"d just be happy to see a list of unit costs per ton, I have seen them on many manufactures equipt like Reem, Rudd, and Goodman I can see the delta difference between the 10 seer and 14 seer units in the same family, and the increase range from 20 to 30% in equiptment costs so that again makes me question a 70% increase in my quote. I have not necessarly asked for exact pricing but a delta difference between units from 10 to 12 to 14 seer on the 2 ton, 2.5 ton and 5 ton units. I am also interested in the delta on the single speed air handler and the variable speed hair handlers.. so far, Ive been unable to get this type of information from the contractor!

Using that If I want a car with an V8 Vs a V6 or even a 4 I know what that upgrade price is.. and I can make a intellegent decesion, right!

Again, Im just trying to jusitify the additional cost the contractor is giving me to be more energy efficient. .That's all, I don't want his price's just the delta difference. is that so hard to figure out?

[beenthere]

Trying to avoid breaking pricing rule, a VS blower is more then double the cost of a PSC blower, at wholesale cost.

So your 70% jump isn't out of line.

Were a York dealer, their Affinity series is 3 and 4 times more then their builder grade same seer.

Bells and whistles.

The horse is dead and decaying now.

[davidki]

I found it interesting to see that Goodman has a fairly good explination on their site regarding a higher seer rate for their units, at the same time, I can see on a number of sites that the Goodman product is about a 30% increase in cost over the 10 seer systems, and that is in line with the energy savings they are promoting..

Honestly, if Trane were offering a 70% savings for the 70% increase I'd buy that, but, again, the 70% upcharge for the 30% increase just does not equate.

As for a 3 to 4 times up charge from 10 seer seems a bit on the high size, I wonder what will happen to the building industry when the EPA demands 13 seer, or, will the manufactures have to adjust their prices down to meet competition.

I see alot of negitive posts on Goodman, but I also see their are one of the largest manufactures that is intersting I guess they aren't that bad, right?

Again, I appologize if I seem negitive on all this, I'm just a dollar and cents guy.. I like to see the numbers before making a decession.

[beenthere]

How much more does a load Lincoln cost then a loaded Kia.

Your choice.

Good Luck.

[davidki]

actually, those numbers are available to me, and to you.

I don't think I am asking a difficult question, but perhpas you have answered it..

I am just wondering if I start with a 10 seer, and move up to the 12 and 14 seer models what is the reasonible upgrade cost, my contractor say 70%...

What no one seems to want to say is that a 10 seer Heat pump (equiptemnt only cost XXX dollars, to go to the 12 or 14 Seer the units cost is xxx much. it's the engine right, is it that difficult to explain the different costs in the units or is it propriority information?

[davidki]

This page shows the 12 seer Trane heat pump with the different tonage..
http://trane.com/Residential/Product...umps/XR12.aspx

This page shows the 14 seer equiptment:
http://trane.com/Residential/Product...mps/XL14i.aspx

This page shows the standard airhandler:
http://trane.com/Residential/Product...rdAirTite.aspx

And this one shows the more efficient ones
http://trane.com/Residential/Product...ableSpeed.aspx

Now all I have asked if the 10 seer cost 1,000 dollars, what is the price for the equiptment for the 12 and 14 seer untits in a 2 ton, 2.5 ton and a 5 ton application.

I am assuming the rough in for vents and electrcial is the same pretty much for all the units, so at that point i'ts equiptment only.

Now if I were looking at cars..I'd go to http://www.edmunds.com and look at the details there, I dont care about dealer pricing, just what is the differece to move up the ladder.. that's all. So far, I have not been able to establish that on Trane..

[beenthere]

To answer your question any more detailed then I did in my other post, would violate forum rules.


There are other forums that will answer price questions with hard numbers that may or may not be right.

[davidki]

well, I am sorry, I am not trying to go against forum rules, I have actually got lots of good info here, I think you understand my prediciment fairly well... with that said, thanks for the help you have given me..

Dave

PS, even if MSLP were availalbe it would make this much easier...

[uktra]

I understand your concern about the cost effectiveness of upgrading equipment. While sharing this concern, I again want to mention do not mistake the forrest for the trees. Any sytem put in with leaky ducts (outside the thermal envelope) cuts the SEER rating of any system in about half! If you lower the heat gain/loss by 30 to 40% over code built homes, then 10 SEER or 12 SEER does not make a lot of difference. If it takes 500 to 600 sq. ft. per ton, the home is not designed properly or there is oversizing of capacity. If you are looking for comfort and savings, the thermal envelope is critical.

[Advanced Response]

Dave,

I hate to say it,, but you are concentrating way to much on price alone... Also, a quality hvac system is not suppose to save you more money on your bills due to better efficiency but is to provide better comfort with more protection to its components with addition of safeties..

As stated over and over,,, your tonage requirement seems way oversized or your home is going to be poorly built...
You need to check with your hvac contractor on the load calculation and see if he is capable of an energy analysis..

As I stated early on,, against forum pricing rules,, the cost your hvac contractor is charging is equal to hack pricing in my area.. There is no way that I would only charge that much for three systems on a change out(not including ductwork), it would be min that much $ maybe more depending on situations... I hope they are better hvac contractors than their price dictates..

I do not recommend any builder model units to my customers but I do quote them if they are only shopping on price not quality.. Just so you know, there are many builder model units in just on manufacturer that may get as high as 14seer but is still a builders model, that is why a quality unit is usually more than just 20% more cost than a builders model unit.. Some brands to go from a 10seer builders unit to a quality unit,, you have to jump over 4 other builders unit prices to get to a high quality unit..

You need to focus less on price and more on the contractor and load calculations...

As stated before,, I would rather have a builders unit installed by a great company.. Than any unit(even high quality unit$) installed by a hack..

Don't look at what this unit can save me,, look at how much more comfortable this quality contractor will keep me..

You are heading for disaster.. when focusing on price alone you are a deer in headlights and are bound to get hurt..
Good luck
J

[dash]

Dave,
What advanced stated is correct,the extra will get you increased comfort,and the job needs to be designed and installed correctly!

One other thing ,the price you are getting may include a large markup by the builder,almost all will mark it up ,and that's normal,but I've heard of a few adding 35 to 45% to what the HVAC guy charges them.

[davidki]

Ok,I hear what you are saying, I will quite with the price issue, I will talk to the HVAC guy re the size although, this guy is one of Trane's best installers in the area and it is he that does the load calcs on his computer but, I will ask him to look at it again.

Keep in mind, the house is what was the 5 ton and the 2.5 ton and that was when we were looking at a package unit down stairs and the split system upstairs. As of yesterday, we have now decided to use a split system down stairs also with the air handler under the house (we are on a raised foundation and have plenty of room according to them). In my first discussions the reason the HVAC guy went with the 5 ton I belive is that we were going with the plackaged system with a dual fuel set up with propane.

The 2 ton split system will be in a detached garage area above the garage, the total space is about 1,000 sq ft with 9 1/2 ft ceilings.

I appreciate everyones input, expecially the concerns over the size of the unit, I will deffinetly ask the questions and ask to see the calcs.

I also like the idea of the variable speed air handler, and I know all of this adds to extra costs.. but as you say a more comfortable living home.

My deal on the build is Cost + I pay all the bills, and invoices for material and labor and a construction fee, I feel that the contractor is very fair and in talking with folks in this town, he is one of the most respected quality builders around so I am confident in the house will be solid and at a fair price.

I'd be glad to call anyone of you to discuss this one on one, don't worry I'm not going to go on about price. I'll just have to look at what my options are and go with my gut feel.

Thanks again for your help.
Dave

[berad]

davidki, where are you located, I need to find out how many cooling hours and heating hours in your area on average. If I remember right, you're talking heatpumps right? I can give you averages, this will give you an approximate idea.

[davidki]

I am in Lebanon Tennessee, about 17 miles east of Nashville, zip code 37087

I was wondering about the comments about sizing of the units and so I did some looking around and based on our size how far off are we?

Our Downstairs area is about 2675 heated, and upstairs is about 1250 sq ft heated. All Wood floors, 2x4 framing with brick and stone outside, R13 in walls, R30 in the attic. The windows will be either Pella or Sun Windows, Wood Double hung, aluminum clad, argon gas, Low E insullated which are the top end windows. We do have quite a few windows and french doors. We have a raised foundation with an aproximate 3' clear underneath. 2 fireplaces, 1 36", 1 42" both wood burning manufactured design with glass doors.

I decided to use 5/8" drywall. 9' ceilings in both the upstairs and down stairs (10' in my office area).

Like I said, I have seen this builders quality and he is top knotch. If anything, we are over designing for efficiency in the area, but that saves money, right.

I appreciate everyones comments, I am the first to stand up and say I do not claim to know about this stuff, only what I read and the specs..

So, perhaps you guys can look at the sizing again for me and I will go back to the contractor.. and any ideas on usuage costs would be wonderful.

By the way, I have the drawings on disc and can email the floor plans if needed.