help in undersanding energy efficient issues

[davidki]

I posted my situation here a few weeks ago and appreciated the response I had received, now I have had the opportunity to talk with and get couple of quotes on equipment and instillation and thought I’d post an update.

Before anyone yells, I know that specific pricing is a no, no, and I can understand that, but saying that, I’d just like to know if the numbers are lining up right or should I go further.

I have been told that given the design of my project that the design of the vents, outlets, returns and ducting would be the same for any of the options. Because of the design of the house and the detached garage and studio above the garage I will require 3 separate systems. The house, 1ea 5 ton down stairs, One 2.5 ton upstairs and either a 2 ton or 25 ton above the garage ( about 1,000 sq ft well insulated recording studio).

I am told that a standard 10 seer system is about $13,500 equipment and installation then to go to a 12 seer 5 ton Gas/heat pump (trane), a 2.5 ton 14 seer and a 2 ton 14 seer would be about $22,0000 I just find that extreme, it’s about a 70% ($8000.00) increase over the base 10 seer. Now in reading I’ll be lucky to see a 20% cost savings per year My guess is that my electric bills will probably average $200 per month, and either way, a 20% savings would equate to only about $40.00 per month at 20% or in real numbers, 20 years to payback..

Perhaps I’m missing something, I can understand a 20% increase for a 20% saving but, the numbers just are not coming out for me..

The dealer said I'd save $130 per month, but, honestly, I don't think we will see bills high enough to have that kind of savings.

Perhaps someone can make sense out of all this.. If it’s just an equipment issue, can it really be that high of an up charge or did they calculate this wrong.. ?

Thanks for your help.
Dave

PS again, I"m not asking for specific costs, but i'd like to know if the percentage Im seeing is typical?

[dave82323]

$ signs are not allowed in this section, please respect the rules. I am surprised you have not yet been deleted by the new boss..get many quotes on your problem,....

[framehvac]

Originally posted by davidki
I posted my situation here a few weeks ago and appreciated the response I had received, now I have had the opportunity to talk with and get couple of quotes on equipment and instillation and thought I’d post an update.

Before anyone yells, I know that specific pricing is a no, no, and I can understand that, but saying that, I’d just like to know if the numbers are lining up right or should I go further.

I have been told that given the design of my project that the design of the vents, outlets, returns and ducting would be the same for any of the options. Because of the design of the house and the detached garage and studio above the garage I will require 3 separate systems. The house, 1ea 5 ton down stairs, One 2.5 ton upstairs and either a 2 ton or 25 ton above the garage ( about 1,000 sq ft well insulated recording studio).

I am told that a standard 10 seer system is about $13,500 equipment and installation then to go to a 12 seer 5 ton Gas/heat pump (trane), a 2.5 ton 14 seer and a 2 ton 14 seer would be about $22,0000 I just find that extreme, it’s about a 70% ($8000.00) increase over the base 10 seer. Now in reading I’ll be lucky to see a 20% cost savings per year My guess is that my electric bills will probably average $200 per month, and either way, a 20% savings would equate to only about $40.00 per month at 20% or in real numbers, 20 years to payback..

Perhaps I’m missing something, I can understand a 20% increase for a 20% saving but, the numbers just are not coming out for me..

The dealer said I'd save $130 per month, but, honestly, I don't think we will see bills high enough to have that kind of savings.

Perhaps someone can make sense out of all this.. If it’s just an equipment issue, can it really be that high of an up charge or did they calculate this wrong.. ?

Thanks for your help.
Dave

PS again, I"m not asking for specific costs, but i'd like to know if the percentage Im seeing is typical?

If I was you I would jump on it because summer is coming & the price will go up.

[Advanced Response]

I hope this contractor did a proper hvac calc..
Wow.. 9.5 ton to 10 tons of cooling needed... If that is what is needed I doubt if your monthly bill will only average $200 a month.. But I did not do the load analysis or a monthly cost analysis..

Also, we can't comment too much on price but you are stating you can get three complete systems plus ductwork for less than 15,000.00 for even builders models seem low.. I don't do new construction but I could not break even for that cost in my area..

Also you stated you are having a recording studio built.. This will need special attention for the heating and cooling or you will have problems with your recordings..

Check your contractor out carefully,, actually you want to check out any contractor very carefully and make sure they understand your needs and expectations of the system..

Good luck
J

If is seems too good to be true it probably is..

[bornriding]

For my area, the 10 seer sound right.
And that is what I say, the higher seers are not worth the money spent. You cannot get payback on the larger seers.

[davidki]

First I would like to say I appologize about the $ question, I did say in my original post that exact numbers were not what I was looking for, I'd just was wondering if the delta between systems could be so much!

The house system is a 5 ton HP with gas secondary, 12 seer trane with variable speed, the house upper level is a 14 seer split 2.5 ton system with the variable speed air handler. The recording studio above the garage has a total space of aboout 1,000 sq ft, there are 3 rooms which are the control room, tracking room and a small lounge area. I think they are looking at the 2 ton system for this room, this is the second studio we have built and I know that the ducting system is important, and the use of large supply and returns.

We are in the Middle Tennessee Valley (MTEC) area and I think our cost is about 6 cents - 6.5 cents per kw therm. The house is about 3900 sq ft, 2600 sq ft 1st floor, 1300 sq ft 2nd floor. We are upgrading the insullation, using 5/8" dry wall vs 1/2 inch, were using wood clad insulated windows with Low E and argon (sun or pella windows and doors). Actually, I have tried to get the contractors and even the electric company to calc out the house and studio but no one seems to provide me that information. The studio probably will be used only about 3 days a week, so the main use is the house. The current house were in is 2300 sq ft, it has a 12 seer 5 ton, hp/gas and our bills have averaged about $100 per month with our usuage so I kind of just guessed on the $200 per month costing.

Again, thanks for the response, Im not looking for a quote, I was just wondering if for the equiptment only would the difference between the 10 seer contractor model and the higher efficency units be that much of an increase in a percentage range and will by going to the higher units will I see a payback in my life time? I am not trying to get firm quotes just if the delta between the units seem out of line or not.. this is because of the equiptment upgrade only, and I was told it is irrespecive of the duct work.

So, I hope that better defines what I am looking for.

Thanks again, Dave

[davidki]

One of the considerations along with the efficency of the units I am looking for a quiet system, I like the idea of the variable speed fans in the system. The two contractors here bidding one is a Trane installer, the other is an American standard/carrier contractor.

I'd love to get a energy calc - usage estimate on the systems the only thing I have to go with is the current house were in but this house is much smaller and not quite as insulated as our new home will be.

I appreciate your response to my question, I may go for the 10 seer in the studio as it will not be used as much as the home system.
Dave

[uktra]

If it takes that much capacity to heat/cool that size house--you and the contractor are not building the house very well or there is massive oversizing. Check with architechs in your area for HVAC design people.

[davidki]

Thanks for the info on the sizing, I am just going by what the two contractors are bidding, both have said they have done the load calcs and have come up with the same sizes. The house is a raised foundation, very large rooms, 2x4 construction with rock and brick exterior, I am using R13 in the walls (May go to celulose) and R38 in the attic area. Windows are all Sun or Pella top of the line energy efficient wood/clad windows. I am confident in the builder who builds a good tight house, he is the one who suggested which HVAC guys to get bids from.

One of the contractors went to the Trane 1200 package unit at 5 tons because he said that unit is a variable speed unit.

It's been 14 years since we built our last home, lots have changed in the industry since then as has the prices for sure. Both contractors have said all units are 10 year parts and labor warranties.

Based on 6.5 cents per KWtherm anyone have an idea on energy costs to run these things?

Dave

[stef]

Don't let the SEER fool you. don't forget to consider your region of living.


Example: If you are living in Minisota, It is not wise to choose a very high SEER comparing to a guy like me living in TX (unless you have plenty of money). As you know you spend the high dollar on the high SEER knowing you get your money back to pay for the difference of the 10 SEER versus 14 SEER. In MN, how many days do you think you will run your A/C per year. How many years do you think you will balance the difference. This does not mean I advocate the 10 SEER. I want you to look at the factor of HOW LONG WILL I GET MY MONEY BACK TO BALANCE OUT THE THE DIFFERENCE. Maybe you want to choose the 12 SEER rather than the 19 SEER

Hope this will help you choose make better choice.

Have fun

[beenthere]

On the 2 heat pumps, check their HSPF rating, to what a 12 seer is. This is what will save you money in the heating season, and may be why they said you would save that much.
The HSPF for the 5 ton is where you also get additional savings, the higher the number, the lowe youor balance point will be, before you need to switch over to gas heat.

[davidki]

Well, first thing I have done is called the HVAC contractor and I am asking him for more details re energy calcs and costs, I just can't get over the difference in the upgrade units.. I am asking him to provide me some energy saving estimates on the units over the standard units.. we will see what he comes back with.

[41gasman]

DavidK. I would highly recommened
that you get load calcs done.
Make sure there REAL ones.
Around my area thet do them
all right.It is one of the
requirements to pull the
permits from the city.
BUT its what they call a
"Heating and cooling sizing
form".Its a piece of paper
that I have to fill out
that asks for building
square footage and construction
type,total window area and type,
insulation values in the walls
ceiling ext.It is a bunch of BS.
I use the HVAC-CALC program
and then have to fudge all
there numbers so it comes
out right on there form.
because they want a min and
max.size on the equipment.
And my silly program only
tells me what I'm suppost
to have.Not what will be to
big and what will be to small!
Anyway I am telling you this
because the numbers you state
here seem really big. But
I don"t live in your neck
of the woods so I really
have no real comparitive
reference point.
AS far as the percentage
different in the cost of
upgrading to a higher seer
don't know in your area
but that a big change
for around here.Even for
the really big (read expensive)
guys.Good luck.
41Gasman

P.S I still think some
types of $ references
should be "OK"

[davidki]

Well, the HVAC guys I am speaking with are highly rated in the area by most ocntractors, they have been around 20+ years and are well respected. I am sure they did a load calc on the home, they had my plans and the unit sizes were based on the load calcs. I even went to the 2nd guy in town and he came up with similar sizes for the equiptment, I guess I could get a 3rd opinion..

I understand that this forum does not allow specific pricing and I am trying to respect that, but what I was just trying to see is that if I have 10 seer units as a base line and go to a 12 seer package 5 ton unit dual fuel HP, and a 2.5 ton 14 seer split system, variable speed and a 3rd unit 2 ton 14 seer split system in the studio is the upgrade in the "equiptment only" of $8100 (original 10 seer estimate was %$13,500) out of line? or is it reasonible? I am told that the rough in, ducting and supply and retuns are the same for any units. (that is a 70% upgrade to my base costs).

[beenthere]

That isn't really out of line, the 2 smaller heat pumps are jumping 4 points, and that is expensive.
A 2 point jump on a 5 ton system isn't cheap either.

[davidki]

I guess I just cant grasp a 70% increase for a 10 -20% savings on electricity.. but, that's just how my brain works I guess.

[bornriding]

Been in this business over 15years. I am still confused.
NO one, including all three power companies, around here can give you figures on energy savings.
And though I try, I cannot find any evidence that anything over a 12 seer is worth the money spent.NOt to mention, the greater repair costs ( and in my opinion, more repair costs) for higher seer systems.

[beenthere]

We don't recommend equipment above 12 seeer for our area, unless its a heat pump.

Usually on a heat pump, a 13 or higher seer will also have a higher HSPF, and thats about the only time the high seer equipment provides any justifiable operating cost benifit.

Your getting heat pumps, so find out the HSPF for both the 10, 12, and 14 seer units, then make your desicion.

[davidki]

I really appreciate the help and information you folks are offering I do have the quote with all the part trane part numbers and I have the brochures, I am not opposed to a fair cost upgrade to the system, but again, it just seemed that from the "Contractors Model" 10 SEEr Trane unit vs the higher efficency variable speed units was hard to justify the payback. Even Trane brochures show a 10% cost savings on the 10 seer to 12 and then a 20 % savings from 10seer to the 14 seer.. the cost for the upgrade was about $8,000 and "if I saved $30.00 per month" on my $200.00 per month electric bill it would take 20 years to get the payback, right?

The frustraiting thing is trying to understand where the payback is coming from and no one seems to be able to come up with that information, all the Trane information says is the estimated cost savings of the units! I do like the idea of the variable speed air handelers though.

By the way, today we decided we can go to a split system under the house rather then a packaged unit which is what we originally were quoted. So, now we will have a 5 tons, a 2.5 ton an 2 ton system. (the 2 ton system is in our recording studio above the garage)..

[berad]

Originally posted by bornriding
For my area, the 10 seer sound right.
And that is what I say, the higher seers are not worth the money spent. You cannot get payback on the larger seers.

In my area I agree. We have 900 cooling hours. 8 cents per kilowatt hour. I did the calculation a while back, I can't remember the outcome exactly, but is was silly, like $40/year on a three ton system. I am being to lazy right now to get out my stuff make the calculation again this minute.

[Edited by berad on 03-03-2005 at 08:15 PM]