help in undersanding energy efficient issues

[davidki]

Well, the HVAC guys I am speaking with are highly rated in the area by most ocntractors, they have been around 20+ years and are well respected. I am sure they did a load calc on the home, they had my plans and the unit sizes were based on the load calcs. I even went to the 2nd guy in town and he came up with similar sizes for the equiptment, I guess I could get a 3rd opinion..

I understand that this forum does not allow specific pricing and I am trying to respect that, but what I was just trying to see is that if I have 10 seer units as a base line and go to a 12 seer package 5 ton unit dual fuel HP, and a 2.5 ton 14 seer split system, variable speed and a 3rd unit 2 ton 14 seer split system in the studio is the upgrade in the "equiptment only" of $8100 (original 10 seer estimate was %$13,500) out of line? or is it reasonible? I am told that the rough in, ducting and supply and retuns are the same for any units. (that is a 70% upgrade to my base costs).

[beenthere]

That isn't really out of line, the 2 smaller heat pumps are jumping 4 points, and that is expensive.
A 2 point jump on a 5 ton system isn't cheap either.

[davidki]

I guess I just cant grasp a 70% increase for a 10 -20% savings on electricity.. but, that's just how my brain works I guess.

[bornriding]

Been in this business over 15years. I am still confused.
NO one, including all three power companies, around here can give you figures on energy savings.
And though I try, I cannot find any evidence that anything over a 12 seer is worth the money spent.NOt to mention, the greater repair costs ( and in my opinion, more repair costs) for higher seer systems.

[beenthere]

We don't recommend equipment above 12 seeer for our area, unless its a heat pump.

Usually on a heat pump, a 13 or higher seer will also have a higher HSPF, and thats about the only time the high seer equipment provides any justifiable operating cost benifit.

Your getting heat pumps, so find out the HSPF for both the 10, 12, and 14 seer units, then make your desicion.

[davidki]

I really appreciate the help and information you folks are offering I do have the quote with all the part trane part numbers and I have the brochures, I am not opposed to a fair cost upgrade to the system, but again, it just seemed that from the "Contractors Model" 10 SEEr Trane unit vs the higher efficency variable speed units was hard to justify the payback. Even Trane brochures show a 10% cost savings on the 10 seer to 12 and then a 20 % savings from 10seer to the 14 seer.. the cost for the upgrade was about $8,000 and "if I saved $30.00 per month" on my $200.00 per month electric bill it would take 20 years to get the payback, right?

The frustraiting thing is trying to understand where the payback is coming from and no one seems to be able to come up with that information, all the Trane information says is the estimated cost savings of the units! I do like the idea of the variable speed air handelers though.

By the way, today we decided we can go to a split system under the house rather then a packaged unit which is what we originally were quoted. So, now we will have a 5 tons, a 2.5 ton an 2 ton system. (the 2 ton system is in our recording studio above the garage)..

[berad]

Originally posted by bornriding
For my area, the 10 seer sound right.
And that is what I say, the higher seers are not worth the money spent. You cannot get payback on the larger seers.

In my area I agree. We have 900 cooling hours. 8 cents per kilowatt hour. I did the calculation a while back, I can't remember the outcome exactly, but is was silly, like $40/year on a three ton system. I am being to lazy right now to get out my stuff make the calculation again this minute.

[Edited by berad on 03-03-2005 at 08:15 PM]

[davidki]

Congradulations, you get a star for the refrig, that is the type of info I am looking for, Our cost per kw here in Tennessee is 6.5 per, then, as usage goes up, the cost actually goes down to 6 cents. Id appreciate it if you have the ability to do some calcs I'd give you a call on the phone and give you my info. I am interested in the variable speed air handlers because of noise, I think they would be nice, but again, I can't get a straight answer on the upgrad cost from the single speed to the variable speed, it just seems like the more questions I ask the more the folks seem to back away from the answers.. I guess I just ask to many questions.. but for me, it' a big investmetn, I want to make the right one..

By the way, if you would like you can email me at davidki@yahoo.com

Thanks so much for the info!

[beenthere]

Part of the cost answer may be that you were quoted builders grade units on the 10 seer, and higher quality units on the 14 seer.

[davidki]

Thanks for the input, I agree with you on the "Builders grade" units, but all I am asking is for justification to go to the upgrade at a 70% cost upgrade and how much it will save me. is it that difficult to figure out? All I get is that I will save money if I upgrade...Ok, how much will I save and over what as a base line, Trane says 20% max, and again, how do I justify the 70% cost increase short term or long term.

Ya know, I'm starting to wonder if there isn anyone in this business that can figure this out... I sure am striking out with the contractors and the electric company!

[beenthere]

No way to give you a hard number on savings.
You already know your not going to get your money back on that upgrade.
Higher seer equipment usually has more bells and whistles, so if thats what you want, get the 14 seer, if thats not what you want, go with 12 seer.

[davidki]

Maybe I'm to much of an engineer, but I'd think that there would be some way to estimate the usuage costs, just plug in the KW price and how many hours of opperation. I would suspect that there is a power draw on the units and if one could plug in the use for the 10, 12 and other units I wonder if an estimate could be acheived..

I think I've beat this dead horse to much already. now I'l just have to get some prices on the different options and decided how much I am willing to spend on the bells and whistles..

Thanks to all you that did reply one way or another.
Dave

[cem-bsee]

how do you think that ANYONE can predict what the DegreeDays will be for next month, next yr, next decade?

You can get & compare BIN data, at least for bigger cities --- you can get an analysis done by someone in commercial mechanical engineering -- just cost $$$ and time --

how did you decide which car to buy to get the least operating expense, esp wrt gas mileage? How much $ did you expect to save? How much have you saved? -- same concept --