So gays in the US Army - Page 3
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  1. #27
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    I've spoken with several ex-military folks and most of them agree that this will not cause any catastrophic problems in the military. There will be issues to deal with, and some additional costs involved. I think it will also increase the amount of harassment to gay people now that some of them will "come out". But the vast majority of military personnel will follow orders and do their duty as before.

    My big issue is with congress sticking their noses in an area where they didn't need to. This was purely a politically motivated decision, they were pandering to a certain voter base. Whether this is the right or wrong thing to do, it should have been left to the military commanders to make.

  2. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by k_fridge View Post
    I've spoken with several ex-military folks and most of them agree that this will not cause any catastrophic problems in the military. There will be issues to deal with, and some additional costs involved. I think it will also increase the amount of harassment to gay people now that some of them will "come out". But the vast majority of military personnel will follow orders and do their duty as before.

    My big issue is with congress sticking their noses in an area where they didn't need to. This was purely a politically motivated decision, they were pandering to a certain voter base. Whether this is the right or wrong thing to do, it should have been left to the military commanders to make.
    I must agree, and well stated K.

    Homosexuallity has always been and I suspect will always be. I tend to believe as mr. Bill does that homosexuallity certainly seems to be against the will of God. How that plays out is between the person accepting a homosexual lifestyle and God. I prefer that the issue stay personal for homosexuals and not be so socially pushed for acceptance. It does offend me when others tell me that my theological beliefs are wrong and make me a homophobe. I am not afraid of homosexuallity, I am tired of hearing about it.
    Government is a disease...
    ...masquerading as its own cure…
    Ecclesiastes 10:2 NIV


  3. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by klove View Post
    I thought that we had already come to the conclusion in another thread that if you've never been there, that if you've never served, that if you've never had to put your life in someone else's trust or asked them to put their trust in you to take care of their life, if you've never had to crawl into a fartsack with another guy to keep from freezing while on a mission, or any of a thousand other things that have to be dealt with on a day to day basis under the worst of circumstances, then you don't have an opinion worth listening to on this subject.
    I guess barrack obama's opinion isn't worth listening to or people like barney frank either since they were never in the military.

    Bush 41 was in wwII and while bush 43 was in the indianna national guard we were never attacked, so their opinion should matter more than barry's and barney's.

  4. #30
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    [QUOTE=bwalley;8757161]I guess barrack obama's opinion isn't worth listening to or people like barney frank either since they were never in the military.

    You are correct neither is worth listening to on any subject, pure waste of space!!!!

  5. #31
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    [QUOTE=classical;8757251]
    Quote Originally Posted by bwalley View Post
    I guess barrack obama's opinion isn't worth listening to or people like barney frank either since they were never in the military.

    You are correct neither is worth listening to on any subject, pure waste of space!!!!
    I have not run for public office so does that take away the validity of my opinion of elected officials? I never had kids of my own, does that negate any words of wisdom I may have? I am not an accountant, guess my opinion on finances are way off base.

    Sorry I do not buy the argument.

  6. #32
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    [quote=printer2;8759351]
    Quote Originally Posted by printer View Post

    I have not run for public office so does that take away the validity of my opinion of elected officials? I never had kids of my own, does that negate any words of wisdom I may have? I am not an accountant, guess my opinion on finances are way off base.

    Sorry I do not buy the argument.
    OK fair enough but be honest printer your earlier post about women in the military is a total travesty and waste of taxpayers money. Women never belong in combat.

    Can you imagine just one gal much less several been in my unit in Nam. We stayed in the jungle for two months at a time, took showers by stripping in the rain when we could we stunk most of the time, had jungle rot, ringworm, etc. Supplies were flown in and the temperatures would climb up to 120 F and had to pace ourselves lucky to get 4 hours sleep not counting the ambushes and fire fights. Can you imagine a gal just taking one step with a ruck sack fully loaded much less walking miles in the hot jungle with it.

    The Army did a study on women in the military in 68 to figure out if there role should be expanded beyond the WACs. (Nurses, doctors, medical technicians, staff personnel for Army Core, etc). They found that it would not be in the interest of the Army to expand there role for 3 reasons.

    1. They have a much higher drop out rate in training and in finishing their enlistment for lots of reasons.

    2. They have a much higher sick call rate than men. A lot less time on the job.

    3. There reenlistment rate is much lower than men thus costing the Army a lot a money to retrain someone and losing all the money it cost to train the gal getting out. Thank you, thank you very much
    "I could have ended the war in a month. I could have made North Vietnam look like a mud puddle."
    "I have little interest in streamlining government or in making it more efficient, for I mean to reduce its size. I do not undertake to promote welfare, for I propose to extend freedom. My aim is not to pass laws, but to repeal them. It is not to inaugurate new programs, but to cancel old ones that do violence to the Constitution."
    Barry Goldwater

  7. #33
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    [QUOTE=glennac;8764691]
    Quote Originally Posted by printer2 View Post

    OK fair enough but be honest printer your earlier post about women in the military is a total travesty and waste of taxpayers money. Women never belong in combat.

    Can you imagine just one gal much less several been in my unit in Nam. We stayed in the jungle for two months at a time, took showers by stripping in the rain when we could we stunk most of the time, had jungle rot, ringworm, etc. Supplies were flown in and the temperatures would climb up to 120 F and had to pace ourselves lucky to get 4 hours sleep not counting the ambushes and fire fights. Can you imagine a gal just taking one step with a ruck sack fully loaded much less walking miles in the hot jungle with it.

    The Army did a study on women in the military in 68 to figure out if there role should be expanded beyond the WACs. (Nurses, doctors, medical technicians, staff personnel for Army Core, etc). They found that it would not be in the interest of the Army to expand there role for 3 reasons.

    1. They have a much higher drop out rate in training and in finishing their enlistment for lots of reasons.

    2. They have a much higher sick call rate than men. A lot less time on the job.

    3. There reenlistment rate is much lower than men thus costing the Army a lot a money to retrain someone and losing all the money it cost to train the gal getting out. Thank you, thank you very much
    Some women are cut out for the life. I'm sure the commander of Charles Company (first link I supplied) would feel differently.

  8. #34
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    [QUOTE=printer2;8759351]
    Quote Originally Posted by classical View Post

    I have not run for public office so does that take away the validity of my opinion of elected officials? I never had kids of my own, does that negate any words of wisdom I may have? I am not an accountant, guess my opinion on finances are way off base.

    Sorry I do not buy the argument.
    Printer,

    That is not an accurate quote of mine, the second line is from someone else.

    Yes you can have an opinion about kids even though you don't have any, but me being a father of 4 kids I can tell you for a fact that until you have kids of your own and raise them you have no idea what is involved.

    I am not an accountant either but a CPA or an accountant's opinion will have more weight than mine.

    barrack never owned or ran a business, yet he is trying to tell big business and insurance companies how to run their business, he has no clue what he is doing.

    How would you like barry telling a/c contractors how much profit we are allowed to make?

    A/C and heat is a neccessity isn't it?

    why should a contractor be able to mark up a part like a capacitor 500-1000% or more????

  9. #35
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    As a former member (peacetime) with a son deployed with 2/1 Marines (0331) in Afghanistan, open gays in the military will not be tolerated in front line, combat units. Combat is about trusting your buddy to have your back and not having to worry about him "checking out" your backside in the shower.

    Most politicians and the populace want to forget what the military is ultimately about...bringing enough destruction to the enemy so that aggression against the US is stopped. WWII wasn't won due to sensitivity. We won because we completely dominated a relentless enemy and brought the fight to every person that supported that enemy. Our Marines on the ground right now cannot shoot or order an air strike at a structure where they are receiving fire from unless they know that only the enemy is inside. As a recruit you are taught to Kill kill kill. There is no time when milliseconds count to worry if you are hurting someone's feelings or if you need more sensitivity.

    Any pol without active military service should be banned from voting on issues that they have no idea about...especially our "man child in chief".
    Avatar is a tribute to my Great Grandfather, Andrew Stewart. This pin was one of his advertisements for his heating and plumbing business. I never knew him but must of inherited his love of things mechanical since I am the only blue collar worker in the family

  10. #36
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    [QUOTE=bwalley;8770061]
    Quote Originally Posted by printer2 View Post

    Printer,

    That is not an accurate quote of mine, the second line is from someone else.

    Yes you can have an opinion about kids even though you don't have any, but me being a father of 4 kids I can tell you for a fact that until you have kids of your own and raise them you have no idea what is involved.

    I am not an accountant either but a CPA or an accountant's opinion will have more weight than mine.

    barrack never owned or ran a business, yet he is trying to tell big business and insurance companies how to run their business, he has no clue what he is doing.

    How would you like barry telling a/c contractors how much profit we are allowed to make?

    A/C and heat is a neccessity isn't it?

    why should a contractor be able to mark up a part like a capacitor 500-1000% or more????
    Sorry, just used the quote function and that is how it came out. But my comment was not only to you but others that have said the same thing over time, if you have not walked in these shoes you do not have a valid opinion.

    As with the kids example, I may not know the emotional turmoil they bring but I do understand the consequences of different ways of raising them.

    Sure Obama may not have run a business but you have had elected officials that have not either. The question would be does he have qualified people that he listens to in order to make his decisions?

    One of the best Premiers my province ever had ran the government for over ten years and left still retaining popular support of the people and business. He started out as a prison guard and worked his way through the political system to get the top job. I'm sure he was involved in the budgetary process in some way, and he was never an accountant.

    Just because a person does not make a living in a certain field does not mean that they can not know the workings of that field. The army is not that removed from our society that those not in it can not phantom how it works. What it really comes down to is people are people where ever they are. And as shown by other countries that openly allow gays in the military the military can adapt.

  11. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by texas cooler View Post
    As a former member (peacetime) with a son deployed with 2/1 Marines (0331) in Afghanistan, open gays in the military will not be tolerated in front line, combat units. Combat is about trusting your buddy to have your back and not having to worry about him "checking out" your backside in the shower.
    so being homosexual means that you aren't capeable of having friends and protecting them/helping them out in a combat situation? i'd love to see some scientific data on that..

    couple guys i went to highschool joined the military, one marines, one navy. both gay. neither had a problem, infact, i've met 3 or 4 of their friends that live in michigan when we had a comming home party for the marine. (and their wives, before you try to call the whole lot gay) When it comes down to it, i can't see anyone being more concerned about sex than their own life and the lives around them in a combat situation. You aren't going to be sitting around checking out the other guys with you when there are insurgents all over trying to kill you.

    Besides, there have been homosexuals in the military since the military has existed. there were gays outed in the civil war, in the revolutinary war, in the fricken PHOENCIAN war.

  12. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by texas cooler View Post
    As a former member (peacetime) with a son deployed with 2/1 Marines (0331) in Afghanistan, open gays in the military will not be tolerated in front line, combat units. Combat is about trusting your buddy to have your back and not having to worry about him "checking out" your backside in the shower.

    Most politicians and the populace want to forget what the military is ultimately about...bringing enough destruction to the enemy so that aggression against the US is stopped. WWII wasn't won due to sensitivity. We won because we completely dominated a relentless enemy and brought the fight to every person that supported that enemy. Our Marines on the ground right now cannot shoot or order an air strike at a structure where they are receiving fire from unless they know that only the enemy is inside. As a recruit you are taught to Kill kill kill. There is no time when milliseconds count to worry if you are hurting someone's feelings or if you need more sensitivity.

    Any pol without active military service should be banned from voting on issues that they have no idea about...especially our "man child in chief".
    So would a woman in a combat mission not trust her male companions to back her up in a firefight because at some point in time they looked at her and made the evaluation whether given the right circumstances he would not mind jumping her or not. Every man that I know does this with every woman he meets. Strangely, in a firefight I doubt the woman, your homophobic buddy, or the gay in your company, is thinking about checking out someone's backside. The training the military gives a gay is just as effective in a fight for survival as it would be for a straight guy.

    If a solder's confidence can be shaken so easily by someone's sexual preference I would wonder on their abilities under pressure. And you know what? Don't tell anyone but under don't ask don't tell you probably have a gay guy in your mist and you would not know it. Not knowing which one is gay do you question all your buddies in backing you up?

    I would prefer having the gay guy beside me that is a good shot and reacts well under pressure to a straight guy that falls a little short. I would not give a damn if he likes to nuzzle up to a stubbly face as a civilian. But then again I am not threatened by someone else's sexuality (Mind you I may feel a little different in a prison situation.)

  13. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by printer2 View Post
    So would a woman in a combat mission not trust her male companions to back her up in a firefight because at some point in time they looked at her and made the evaluation whether given the right circumstances he would not mind jumping her or not. Every man that I know does this with every woman he meets. Strangely, in a firefight I doubt the woman, your homophobic buddy, or the gay in your company, is thinking about checking out someone's backside. The training the military gives a gay is just as effective in a fight for survival as it would be for a straight guy.

    If a solder's confidence can be shaken so easily by someone's sexual preference I would wonder on their abilities under pressure. And you know what? Don't tell anyone but under don't ask don't tell you probably have a gay guy in your mist and you would not know it. Not knowing which one is gay do you question all your buddies in backing you up?
    I would prefer having the gay guy beside me that is a good shot and reacts well under pressure to a straight guy that falls a little short. I would not give a damn if he likes to nuzzle up to a stubbly face as a civilian. But then again I am not threatened by someone else's sexuality (Mind you I may feel a little different in a prison situation.)
    Printer no way around it. Women and gays don't belong in combat arms. Women can't pull their weight aren't strong enough. Gays will duck and run most are sissies and we don't need them either. Let them be troop clerks, typists, cooks, if at all better still not al all. No gays allowed. Thank you, thank you very much
    "I could have ended the war in a month. I could have made North Vietnam look like a mud puddle."
    "I have little interest in streamlining government or in making it more efficient, for I mean to reduce its size. I do not undertake to promote welfare, for I propose to extend freedom. My aim is not to pass laws, but to repeal them. It is not to inaugurate new programs, but to cancel old ones that do violence to the Constitution."
    Barry Goldwater

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