Trane high kwh usage

[rfelectron]

Stef,
I didn't think you lived in a tent. I bet if you clicked on the load calc. link at the top of this page and actually performed a load calc on your house you would see that your HP ALONE with no back up strips has more cap. than your heat loss at the design conditions for your location. Get the Trane expanded performance ratings for your unit and you will see a graph of heating BTU vs. ODA. Compare the heating BTU at the design ODA off the graph to the heat loss from your load calc. I'm betting the heating BTU is greater by a good margin. Be sure to let me know if I'm right or wrong if you decide to do a load calc.

[mark beiser]

A load calculation would need to be performed to be sure, but I can tell you this with a great deal of confidence. Even if it is a fairly poorly built tract home, a 3.5 ton system in a modern 1500 square foot home in the DFW area is oversized by at least half a ton if you go by the normal design conditions used in the area. That is assuming you didn't tell your HVAC contractor that you wanted to be able to do something silly like keep it 70 in the house when it is 105 outside....


It is to late to do anything about the sizing of it now without changing the system out, but as others have said, you need to get a contractor out that has a clue. If you go to Trane's web site there is a link to find a contractor in your area. It will give you a list of a few Comfort Specialist dealers that service your area.
A dealer being a Trane Comfort Specialist doesn't guarantee that the technician that shows up at your door will be the sharpest tool in the shed, but to be a Comfort Specialist dealer, the contractor has to jump through some extra hoops with Trane when it comes to customer service and training of employees.
Generally there is a $25 fee for transfereing your 10 year parts and labor warranty to have a different dealer as your servicer, but if you call Trane, they may waive it since you are having a problem with your current dealer.

We have fantastic dealer and customer support from Trane in the DFW area, Trane WILL see to it that your problems with the system are resolved.

[Edited by mark beiser on 02-23-2005 at 03:16 AM]

[stonecipher]

Originally posted by mark beiser


A dealer being a Trane Comfort Specialist doesn't guarantee that the technician that shows up at your door will be the sharpest tool in the shed, but to be a Comfort Specialist dealer, the contractor has to jump through some extra hoops with Trane when it comes to customer service and training of employees.

[Edited by mark beiser on 02-23-2005 at 03:16 AM]

I got a list of the Comfort Specialist Dealers in my zip last night, and my current installer is one of the seven listed, so that didn't help me much. He's a one man outfit (w/ helper) so I guess I need to go to a larger outfit. According to their websites, one has 7 techs, another 5 techs, one had one tech, and my current installer. The others didn't list details.

[stonecipher]

Originally posted by rfelectron
Stef,
I didn't think you lived in a tent. I bet if you clicked on the load calc. link at the top of this page and actually performed a load calc on your house you would see that your HP ALONE with no back up strips has more cap. than your heat loss at the design conditions for your location. Get the Trane expanded performance ratings for your unit and you will see a graph of heating BTU vs. ODA. Compare the heating BTU at the design ODA off the graph to the heat loss from your load calc. I'm betting the heating BTU is greater by a good margin. Be sure to let me know if I'm right or wrong if you decide to do a load calc.

I'm sure you are probably right, and I'm also taking my attic insulation from R-30 to R-55. In a previous life, I was a commercial architect, but I never had to do much load calcs outside of college. When I first had the system installed in '02 I dl'd HVAC-Calc but I didn't run it or buy it.

My elec bills have always been high, and I'm trying to figure out why.

[stef]

Dear sir,

Now we are in some right track.

1) your dip switch are good

2) you need to fix the leak and let a PROFESSIONAL do it. Sure it cost you if the leak is not in the unit. You rather have it fixed right than fix it wrong. It will cost you much more if the flame gets out of hand and burn some thing else (your house)

3) the freon must be taken ALL OUT and replace with a new clean freon. 410A is a mix, thus it will not be pure when it leaks out alot (sound like you loose alot). BEST TO HAVE NEW FREON.

4) as far as you use your 1" filter is OK. As long as when you open your return grill out and NOTHING behind it (2x4 stud), you can put a 4" filter in. I have it my house, and I sold many of them every year. 4" filter will have more surface area, thus it is less noise.

5) once the leak is repair, then ask technician to go thru the list I give you.

6) When the list are filled, then I'll show you how to hook up two stage thermostat.

7) If the system perporms well, and then properly control with multi-stage heat strips. You don't care much how many KW in it. IT IS ONLY A MACHINE, AND WE ARE CONTROLLING IT.

Have fun

[Carnak]

Originally posted by BamaCracker

Originally posted by rfelectron
You don't need strips at all.

You can't mnake a blanket statement to that effect old pal. Some homes need strip heat when the outdoor temp gets below 50, while others don't need it till the outdoor temp gets to 0. And every conceivable point in between.

He needs a cmopetent contractor who cares to come see what his problem really is.

ow you been Reflex?

You're so polite

[BamaCracker]

Originally posted by Carnak


You're so polite

Only because Reflex and I are friends.

[duct dr]

I'd be happy to fix that leak for you, at no charge even cause all the trouble you've been through. Only problem is you're in TX and I'm not.I work for a Trane dealer and install heat pumps on a regular basis. From what I've read here, you're system is right, with the exception of the heat strips and freon leak. You really don't need more than 10KW strips with a heat pump, and that leak is gonna kill your power bill if it has'nt already. Sure wish I could help.

[stonecipher]

Well, it's very high humidity here (70%), scattered showers, about 42, so the tech wanted to see about doing the tomorrow, and I agreed. I understand about the humidity and charging, turning into acid, etc. I spoke with a nice lady at Dallas Trane who I think was area service mgr (?), I don't think she was a FSR. She knew all the dealers in Dallas and gave me some recommendations. I went with the one that first popped into her head, as I figured that was a good sign. They (the service company) knew her name and I get the inpression that the tech was made aware that this lady recommended them and to not screw up.

It's only supposed to be 10% humidity tomorrow, so we'll see how it goes. Stay tuned.

[stonecipher]

Originally posted by duct dr
I'd be happy to fix that leak for you, at no charge even cause all the trouble you've been through. Only problem is you're in TX and I'm not.I work for a Trane dealer and install heat pumps on a regular basis. From what I've read here, you're system is right, with the exception of the heat strips and freon leak. You really don't need more than 10KW strips with a heat pump, and that leak is gonna kill your power bill if it has'nt already. Sure wish I could help.

Thanks, duct dr. It would only be the best of coincindence if I could find someone local here. Usually anyone who puts the effort into helping people on forums are usually (most of the time) pretty good at their work and life in genral, and that's the best recommendation of all.

[stef]

Dear sir,

I hope you get this message before the repair. Once again, remove all old charge. PULL DEEP VACUUM AT LEAST 500 MICRONS. and weight in the BRAND NEW freon. You are good to go on the charge. High humidity out side has nothing to do with the service. I live in Southeast TX, which has more humidity than Seatle per year (I bet someone will beg the differ).

Have fun

[mark beiser]

Originally posted by stef
High humidity out side has nothing to do with the service.

We just had some rain here in the DFW area and water squishes up out of the ground when you walk on it. I wouldn't open up a R-410a system today.

[stonecipher]

Originally posted by mark beiser

Originally posted by stef
High humidity out side has nothing to do with the service.

We just had some rain here in the DFW area and water squishes up out of the ground when you walk on it. I wouldn't open up a R-410a system today.

Mark is right - we've had a very wet year for north texas and the clay just can't hold any more water. Any rain at all and the ground turns to soup. Was nice yesterday, gray and chilly today. Hopefully it will be better tomorrow afternoon.

[stef]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by stef
High humidity out side has nothing to do with the service.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


We just had some rain here in the DFW area and water squishes up out of the ground when you walk on it. I wouldn't open up a R-410a system today.
__________________________________________________ __

If you are concern about it is fine.

But are we pouring freon in the bucket then scope it in the system??????

Even with 0 degrees outside or raining outside. We can still weight the exact amount of freon in the system, which is by the way the best method of charging the system. As long as your gauge is in the dry location.

Have fun

[bornriding]

Would there not be a problem cause the installer did not change the copper lines between units. Went from r-22 to 410A, wouldn't you guys change copper lines??
Have not dealt with 410A, just know higher pressures. Do you people who install these use the same copper lines that are used for R-22 ?? Soft-drawn rolled copper.

[Wild Leg]

Originally posted by bornriding
Would there not be a problem cause the installer did not change the copper lines between units. Went from r-22 to 410A, wouldn't you guys change copper lines??
Have not dealt with 410A, just know higher pressures. Do you people who install these use the same copper lines that are used for R-22 ?? Soft-drawn rolled copper.

Yes, I would prefer new copper.
Not because it isn't strong enough, but because it is a completely new system, except for the line set.
Residual oil & contaminants would be my concern.
Soft copper should be able to handle the pressures.
I doubt a R-410a coil is much, if any, thicker than an R-22 coil.

I suspect most linesets won't get changed, due to additional cost.

Low bid wins again.

Correct me if I am wrong.

[stonecipher]

Originally posted by bwal2

Originally posted by bornriding
Would there not be a problem cause the installer did not change the copper lines between units. Went from r-22 to 410A, wouldn't you guys change copper lines??
Have not dealt with 410A, just know higher pressures. Do you people who install these use the same copper lines that are used for R-22 ?? Soft-drawn rolled copper.

Yes, I would prefer new copper.
Not because it isn't strong enough, but because it is a completely new system, except for the line set.
Residual oil & contaminants would be my concern.
Soft copper should be able to handle the pressures.
I doubt a R-410a coil is much, if any, thicker than an R-22 coil.

I suspect most linesets won't get changed, due to additional cost.

Low bid wins again.

Correct me if I am wrong.

Well, the original installer was offered the option of replacing the entire line. He chose not to replace the line in the wall. I will tell the guy tomorrow that he has that option also. I don't mind paying if it will fix the problem !! Again, I ask the question from earlier, what are my options to replace the lineset? Can the new lineset be run on the outside of the brick wall with some kind of metal sheilding, or do I have to tear the sheetrock off the wall? I believe the line is inside a closet wall. I will do / or will have done, whatever it takes, even if I have to repair the gyp later. He's coming out at 2 pm, 12 hours from now. Any guidance?

[Wild Leg]

Originally posted by stonecipher

Well, the original installer was offered the option of replacing the entire line. He chose not to replace the line in the wall. I will tell the guy tomorrow that he has that option also. I don't mind paying if it will fix the problem !! Again, I ask the question from earlier, what are my options to replace the lineset? Can the new lineset be run on the outside of the brick wall with some kind of metal sheilding, or do I have to tear the sheetrock off the wall? I believe the line is inside a closet wall. I will do / or will have done, whatever it takes, even if I have to repair the gyp later. He's coming out at 2 pm, 12 hours from now. Any guidance?

Yes they can be re-routed, if need be.
You are on the right track, but you don't want the lines replaced before they are proven to be defective.
It would be unfortunate if the tech decided that's where the leak MUST be, since he can't find it anywhere else.

And then, the REAL leak shows up, somewhere else (months later).

Don't tear the wall out yet.
Re-using the existing lineset was the easiest way.
Easy beats hard, every time.

If the installer had replaced the lines, it still wouldn't guarantee that you would have been leak-free.
But it should have minimized the risk.

Guidance? Let him do his job.

I am in Tyler.
I would ALMOST drive the two hours to watch this thing play out.

Keep us posted.

[Edited by bwal2 on 02-25-2005 at 08:29 AM]

[ct2]

BWA12
I had something really sarcastic to say and then I noticed that you posted this :

doubt a R-410a coil is much, if any, thicker than an R-22 coil.

so I will simply say that it is recomended that the coil also be changed due to the higher pressures associated with 410a

[Wild Leg]

Originally posted by ct2
...so I will simply say that it is recomended that the coil also be changed due to the higher pressures associated with 410a

ct2, why aren't you in class?
You didn't graduate already did you?

Did you see the "correct me if I am wrong", part?
I'm always willing to learn.

Have you cut one open yet?

I've got a few 410a coil lab samples from various manufacturers, and they are woefully thin, in search of the mighty SEER/COP.
They are encased in plastic, so hard to actually measure thickness.
I have a few new coils & systems in my labs that I could sacrifice in the name of education.
That might be a good project for next week.
After I cut one up, I'll send you a piece of it, if you want it.
I usually give my classes a chance to ruin new equipment before dissection, but I am willing to shortcut the process.

The question was about the connecting tubing, not the coil.
The lineset will be MUCH thicker than the coil, old or new, therefore not the weak link. The header on the coil is thicker, too. The thinnest part of the coil is the part that is covered with fins, plus the return bends, usually at the back of an A-coil.

It has ALWAYS been recommended to change the indoor coil, so why should R-410a be any different?

As usual, correct me if I am wrong.
Heap it on, my shoulders are broad...