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  1. #27
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    East Stroudsburg, PA
    Posts
    13,215
    Originally posted by fat eddy
    Ok I read the rules sounds like be polite,give general advice to homeowners nothing specific, and no pricing.
    Yeah, you know, we ALL want to help these folks make informed decisions about equipment and contractor choices, things like that, just nothing that could potentially harm someone.

    I mean, if they ask how often to change their filters, cool, tell 'em, or if they ask what the differences are in efficiencies, or types of units, that's great. I wish more of my residential customers would come here and do some research before calling and saying "what kind of heat should I get"...

    This site is a fantastic resource, and we, as professionals, should do our level best to keep it this way.

    Yes, I understand the desire to do it yourself, yes, of course, I understand the deisre to save money, and I can even relate to not trusting contractors on some level, but we owe it to these people as professionals to advise them when they need one of us.

  2. #28
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    East Stroudsburg, PA
    Posts
    13,215
    Originally posted by fixit50
    As Dave mentioed there is a liabilty with each answer, how many of theses furnaces have been check for c.o.?/? When was the last time they been cleaned? get it working on here by an answer and some big lawyer comes along and sues the owner of the site and the person who answers it, the only way I see is that a tech comes here gives ansers and then moves on to the next H.O. by having a per per question for the h.o. and a true hvac company answering then who does the liabilty fall upon? See where this can all go? There are alot of qualified contractors on this site and alot of super techs on this site, I have even seen some homeowners answer questions. This is one reason our insurance rates are high, it is a sue happy world and there are people who will sue you for saying or doing anything that they find that they dis like of you.I rambled on to much. Words are all goofed up now.
    I'm more concerned that some littl ekid will suffer because Dad decided to fix something that he wasn't prepared to repair properly.

    We can't see the piece of equipment from here, so how could we possibly diagnose a potentially lifethreatening condition?

    I can't recall how many times I've seen dangerous things in homes and businesses, that looked, to the untrained eye, perfectly safe.

  3. #29
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Central Kentucky
    Posts
    6,247
    Originally posted by condenseddave
    [I'm more concerned that some littl ekid will suffer because Dad decided to fix something that he wasn't prepared to repair properly.

    We can't see the piece of equipment from here, so how could we possibly diagnose a potentially lifethreatening condition?

    I can't recall how many times I've seen dangerous things in homes and businesses, that looked, to the untrained eye, perfectly safe.
    Cdave this is exactly why we don't give advice over the phone either.

  4. #30
    Originally posted by lmtd
    The truely interesting part is not so much the questions that get asked, but some of the near clueless answers that are provided. Sometimes it is flat out scary and frankly embarassing to the trade.
    I sorry but I haven't seen a whole lot of bad replies to questions. Most of them have a lot of merit, they may be approaching it in a different way than you would but there is more than one way to get to an answer.

    I hope you are not refering to my replies mister because I would run circles around you.

  5. #31

    Condensed must refer to your mind

    As it gets smaller with each of your posts, no worries about the false statement that I once went by something else as its just one more thing you are misinformed about.
    But I did think that it was kind of neat that I had managed to assume this new identity and do it before you became a member and yet you still knew all about it.
    For your information I do work in the trade, I do own my own business and have since 1990, and my answers are almost always correct when I post. More things you would know nothing about.
    Controle_noob why would you resort to name calling, are you so unsure of your skills you seek approval from condensed?
    It sounds like it.
    I find it laughable that many of you spout off about legalities and liability issues, and in the same post refer to a pay by the question system. Now that sums up the real issue doesn’t it fellows, your pathetic businesses or so fragile that you feel you can't afford to help anyone unless you get paid.
    You can spray paint all over bovine defecation but in the end it's still BS.
    A woman has the last word in any argument
    Anything a man says after that is the beginning of a new argument.

  6. #32
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    East Stroudsburg, PA
    Posts
    13,215

    Re: Condensed must refer to your mind

    Originally posted by Pioneer
    As it gets smaller with each of your posts, no worries about the false statement that I once went by something else as its just one more thing you are misinformed about.
    But I did think that it was kind of neat that I had managed to assume this new identity and do it before you became a member and yet you still knew all about it.
    For your information I do work in the trade, I do own my own business and have since 1990, and my answers are almost always correct when I post. More things you would know nothing about.
    Controle_noob why would you resort to name calling, are you so unsure of your skills you seek approval from condensed?
    It sounds like it.
    I find it laughable that many of you spout off about legalities and liability issues, and in the same post refer to a pay by the question system. Now that sums up the real issue doesn’t it fellows, your pathetic businesses or so fragile that you feel you can't afford to help anyone unless you get paid.
    You can spray paint all over bovine defecation but in the end it's still BS.
    You must be one of those rocket scientists we keep hearing about in this section.

    I apologized for the mistaken identity earlier, but not ffor trashing you disregard for the rules of this site or the safety of the innocent folks coming here for help.

    I am 100% opposed to a "pay by the answer" system, and will always be. I share information for free, happily, and and willingly, with other pros, and the homeowners that come here looking for the information that will help them choose a safe, efficient system and/or a good contractor. That suggestion was made by a new member here.

    I don't do this (Post here) for the money, (of course) and I certainly don't withhold information because I think it'll take money out of my (or anyone else's) pocket.

    You obviously disagree with the rules. Fine. Ya still gotta follow them. I disagree with several laws, (some federal...) but I obey them nonetheless, because that is what the majority has chosen as a set of guidelines for a peaceful society.


  7. #33

    Thumbs down Rocket scientist

    Ok you seem to have a firm grasp on quoting other post so perhaps you would be so kind as to do so with the one you are referring to where I have disregarded the rules of this sight, and maybe you could even quote the rule I have broken.
    You seem to have some sort of issue with me personally, so I would like to know why.
    Now while you are searching for this post where I broke the rules maybe you could browse these rules you feel compelled to enforce (by the way you should contact Boss and let him know he forgot to put moderator beside your name) and pay close attention to the part where it says you may not defame other members. Then conceder the fact that you have called me a fraud and said I had a disregard for the rules of this site in this post.
    Now ask yourself who is the rule breaker here. ROCKET SCIENTIST!
    A woman has the last word in any argument
    Anything a man says after that is the beginning of a new argument.

  8. #34

    Re: Condensed must refer to your mind

    Originally posted by Pioneer
    Controle_noob why would you resort to name calling, are you so unsure of your skills you seek approval from condensed?
    It sounds like it.
    I call it as I see it... first amendment and all... Ironic that it's Presidents Day. Within a Democracy you have laws, and rules are basically that... some follow the rules, others don't and are corrected for it. It's the basis for our lives here in the good old USA. Aint it great?

    PS, if CD approves that is his perogative, I couldn't care less either way.

  9. #35
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Posts
    1,371
    As a homeowner, I've been a member here for more then 4 years and have participated in many good discussions, especially about electricity and motors, etc. I have stayed away somewhat in the past year due to the generally increased hostility and lack of respect for homeowners and customers. First a discussion on the word "professional".

    By definition, a HVAC "professional" is someone who does HVAC for a living. Since someone who does something for a living tends to become experienced and knowledgable about it, the word is sometimes used as a synonym for "expert". Finally, the word "professional" is also sometimes used to describe a persons conduct, like when we say "acting in a professional manner".

    From what I often see here, although many do HVAC for a living, not all are experts, and even less then that act in a professional manner. As lmtd said earlier, some replies are an embarassment to the trade and make everyone look bad. I would have a hard time hiring some of the people who give such disrespectful responses to people who are asking very legitimate questions. Its also sometimes scary to see the general lack of knowledge about electricity of a lot of the "professionals". Many seem to want to scare customers into thinking that this is rocket science, yet the same people don't even know such fundamental things as motor startup characteristics, back emf, power factor, etc. Some questions about circuit breaker and wire sizing are downright scary.

    Its too bad, but as more and more web savvy would-be customers come upon this site to look for information, they're getting a bad image of HVAC professionals and will tend to mistrust them, much like auto repair business owners are generally mistrusted.
    If you don't know what you're doing, do it neatly

  10. #36

    I agree Guy

    it looks bad for all of us when so-called professionals use misleading scare tactics to avoid giving free advice.
    Funny thing about it is there is no one forcing any of us to respond to any question here.
    It would just seem to me that rather then starting an issue over it, it would be better just to let it go without responding.
    Control; You speak of the first amendment giving you the right to say what you want, well It also gives you the right to not say anything at all.
    Why do some of you feel the need to scold Homeowners and DIYs for asking the question, rather then just passing the post over?
    Some of us are secure in the fact that a helping hand offered to someone now and then will not put us out of business.
    You and Condensed keep mentioning rule violations, but I have yet to see one produced.
    I encourage you to find a post where I have given step-by-step instructions to a homeowner.
    The subject is really not worth all of this discussion Why don't we agree to disagree, I'll keep offering guidance within the boundaries of the site rules, and you keep your information to yourself and share only with the pros.
    I see nothing wrong with your choice, allow me to have mine.

    A woman has the last word in any argument
    Anything a man says after that is the beginning of a new argument.

  11. #37
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    East Stroudsburg, PA
    Posts
    13,215
    [QUOTE]Originally posted by condenseddave
    Originally posted by Pioneer
    Originally posted by condenseddave
    Originally posted by fat eddy
    I understand that, but the reality is that they come and ask questions and we being the customer oriented people that we are do not turn them down.
    Click on the link in my signature line.

    Specifically:
    Forum rule #2
    Do-It-Yourselfers - not here.

    This site is for industry professionals and folks seeking HVAC/R advice and knowledge. Please do not ask for step by step instructions on purchasing, installing or repairing your own HVAC equipment, that is our job and our livelihood. We are generous, but not to a fault.

    Questions of this type will not be answered and may be deleted

    Dave I think you may have overlooked something in your quote
    you completely skipped over this one to get to the section you quoted.

    Who Is Welcome Here?

    Anyone in the HVAC industry and home or building owners with HVAC/R concerns and other polite and fun people that are willing to contribute.

    I didn't overlook anything.

    Read my FIRST line. That's a hyperlink to the site rules.

    I never said that anyone wasn't welcome here.

    Again, you're trying to twist things around to suit your own unprofessional agenda. Try actually working for a living in the HVAC trade, Seattle, before you dole out anymore of your own version of dangerous advice.

    You've tried this before, and lost. So you changed your name slightly, your MO is still the same.

    [Edited by condenseddave on 02-20-2005 at 07:49 PM]
    Was in error.

    You're obviously related to this guy, in some way, because your lame arguments and your incessant pointing to (already corrected) errors is identical to his.

    Here is the apology post:

    Originally posted by condenseddave.

    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Originally posted by control_noob

    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Originally posted by condenseddave

    Again, you're trying to twist things around to suit your own unprofessional agenda. Try actually working for a living in the HVAC trade, Seattle, before you dole out anymore of your own version of dangerous advice.


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    CD, same MO, different dude... I thought the same as you but unless he has 2 different profiles and posting histories it is 2 different anal-retentives.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    I apologize, then, for the mistaken identity.
    What more can I say? You perform in the same manner as "Seattle Pioneer" regarding this particular subject.

    I mean, IDENTICAL.

    If you're gonna hang out with skunks, you're gonna stink.

    For the record, I never accuse YOU of violating the rules, I accused "Seattle Pioneer" of that. If you're having difficulty comprehending this, I can type slower.

    I'm not using scare tactics, I'm telling the plain truth.

    If someone got hurt, no, it might not put YOU (or whoever gave the advice) out of business, but it certainly would effect this website. And think for a minute how you'd (Or whoever gave the advice) feel if you gave a DIY'er GOOD DIY advice, and they blew it, because they just didn't get what you were saying, and cooked their family in the middle of the night. Just step back and think for a minute how long it might take you (Or whoever gave the advice)to get over something like that. THAT is one reason why that particular rule is in place.

    Like I said earlier, to Fat Eddy:

    Originally posted by condesneddave
    [/b]
    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Originally posted by fat eddy
    Ok I read the rules sounds like be polite,give general advice to homeowners nothing specific, and no pricing.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    Yeah, you know, we ALL want to help these folks make informed decisions about equipment and contractor choices, things like that, just nothing that could potentially harm someone.

    I mean, if they ask how often to change their filters, cool, tell 'em, or if they ask what the differences are in efficiencies, or types of units, that's great. I wish more of my residential customers would come here and do some research before calling and saying "what kind of heat should I get"...

    This site is a fantastic resource, and we, as professionals, should do our level best to keep it this way.

    Yes, I understand the desire to do it yourself, yes, of course, I understand the deisre to save money, and I can even relate to not trusting contractors on some level, but we owe it to these people as professionals to advise them when they need one of us. [/b]
    THAT'S the sort of advice we should give. THAT'S all I'm saying.

    Do you require FURTHER explanation, or can you absorb this????

  12. #38
    I'm afraid you are wasting your breath CD, there are two sides here... One side sees the net as a place to go and get advice on anything, anyone who refuses to answer or tells them not to play with things they don't understand is bad. There are techs who need the boost in self-esteem so they puff out their chests and spew advice right or wrong. There are home owners who (like certain techs) get a boost from beating the furnace guy out of a repair bill so they spew too. Correct either one and it's like you kneed them in the cujones. The other side follows site rules and has maybe gotten stung a time or two... the seasoned tech, the seasoned poster here. You won't get anywhere correcting that first group, we need a more agressive moderator, it seems since the sale that there is none. Boss rarely let this crap go on, I think I'll volunteer to take his place for the resi forum.

  13. #39

    To LMTD

    I refuse to get drawn into another argument on the subject of refrigeration with you. I clearly was the winner of the last one ( see charging by weight question ). Not only was I right about everything that I posted, and then thankfully another non partisan member took the time to document your errors while confirming that my theory was the correct one. Never the less I find it pointless to discuss a topic with someone that will just stop replying once they realize that they are the wrong side of the point.

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