R410A? Pros and Cons please

[westcoastcomfort]

Please fill me in on what you as contractors and installers think, feel or know about the implementation of R410A.I am getting mixed answers.

Thanks
Hipster in California

[filterchanger]

It doesn't matter what we think,,gotta do what you gotta do

[theblade]

For the time being, it looks as it will be "the" new refrigerant. Will some one develope something later that is better/less costly, safer, who knows? Only time will tell. Properly designed/sized/installed systems, work well, and the customer will not know if it is r-22 or r410a.
Nothing ever stays the same.

[jlkelly]

All install and retro' must be completed by the book or else.....Too bad for home owners if corners are cut, good work for the ones who clean up after hacks. Other wise there really is not another alternative.

[duct dr]

Can't really think of any pros or cons about either. All I know is 2010 will mark the end of R22. Its a Govt. thing (EPA). Both freons are hazardous to the enviroment, but both do a good job cooling your house when sized and installed right. Do we have a choice? Right now yes, later on down the road no.

[NormChris]

http://www.bacharach-training.com/norm/410.htm

[docholiday]

Great column Norm. For the most part I agree and I want to be sure of a few things mentioned.

If I understand correctly the burst pressure of the relief for a disposible jug of r-22 when converted to a saturation temperature is the same saturation temperature used to establish the relife valve for the r-410A. In otherwords neither R-22 nor R-410A should be stored in temperaturea above 120 degrees. The R-22 minimum disk rupture point is 340 psig (141 degrees) the R-410A minimum rupture disk is 525 psig or about 138 degrees. So a dot 39 cylinder of R-22 has the sdame potential to blow the soft plug at the same temperature of a jug of 410A. (granted if the 410 pops it will be more violent). With that said, the R-22 should not be exposed to any hihger temps or practices you mentioned for the 410A. The service presure of the tanks is also within 3 degrees F.

I just wanted to toss that the tanks are basicly rated the same so they should be treated the same and that the 410A jug is just as safe as the R22 jug and likeise we cannot abuse a jug of R-22 simply becuase the pressure is lower.

[what96]

I belive r410 is kind of like the beta type viedo tape system that was battling with the vhs systems at the time viedo tapes were new. Beta lost for many reasons. There is a new form of blended refigerant now that offers better efficency than r22 and is completly compatible with current systems and oils. and is epa certified and runs almost the same pressure as r22. r410 has much higher running pressure and costs more to manufacture the coils and piping to handle those pressures. I think r410 will be gone in the next ten years.

[dash]

I'll bet R410a won't be gone .

[duct dr]

what96, what is the name of this "new" freon? R410a IS a blended freon, and will probably be around longer than you think.

[docholiday]

There is no reason to replace it. The industry isnt going to change without legislation and definately will not change just because untrained techs are afraid of it.

There is virtually no concievable scenerio to use a drop in refrigerant for r-22 in todays market and environment so you might be hard pressed to justify production of such a product at this point.

[gillman-air]

410 is here to stay. In a class I attended last year the instructor mentioned that all of the major compressor suppliers have accepted, and designed around 410-a. You can bet that copeland, having an 80 percent share, will not chase after the flavor of the week. This will not be like all the r-12 crap in the mid 90's. imo

[duct dr]

Which product are you refering to doc? EPA has already decided that R22 will no longer be made after 2009. R410a isnt a "drop in", it's a replacement. Even though both freons are hazardous, in our industry the EPA can and will decide which one we use.

[NormChris]

The EPA does not develop refrigerants they simply designate which available refrigerants can be used. R-410a is the current alternative to R-22. All manufacturers are committed to R-410a.

[duct dr]

LOL, thats what I been trying to say Norm.

[phosgene]

In residential all we put in is r410a (carrier and lennox) and it has worked great for us with many happy customers. around 95 F off the grills after 10 minutes . 410 may cause greenhouse gases but has no ODP. the higher pressures have caused no problems just another set of gauges in the van

[acdude32]

Look here 410 is a blend and the oil it uses is a magnet for moisture , now lets look at those 2 things alone 1st its a blend so if you have a leak you have to pull it all out and recharge the system this is a great cost to the H/O. If proper vacuum isnt performed you may absorb moisture and it wont be long before the compressor is done. these are both things that are expensive to the H/O.And now we can talk about the high pressures but that has already been covered, I remember when we changed from R-12 to R-22 everyone hated that also they were all worried about the pressures and the change ect this is the same thing all over again only this time the ref. is worse it is a blend and that has never been good for this trade, in my opinon.

[phosgene]

according to the suva.dupont website on 410a there is no need to recover to recharge, the glide is so minimal (near azeotrope) that you can just top the systems up if there is a leak (of course after the leak is fixed). on heat pump install you add for line length same as you would r22

[Advanced Response]

ACDude,
You obviously have not had any r410a training..
Have you ever heard of a temperature glide..
r410a if it leaks out can be topped of without any adverse effect..
Get some training before you make inaccurate statements..
I have been installing and servicing r410a units since 1998 and have seen far less compressor failures in r410a units and have never had to remove all the charge to top off a unit after a leak repair..

Get your facts right.. Norm will be along shortly with his yard stick..

J

All the drop in blend replacements for r22 that I have heard about leak out unevenly and do require that the unit be recovered and recharged with virgin blended refrigerant..
I have not heard of any manufacturer that recommends any of the supposed drop in replacement for r22..
R410 is here to stay and is just as good of a refrigerant as r22..

[docholiday]

Originally posted by duct dr
Which product are you refering to doc? EPA has already decided that R22 will no longer be made after 2009. R410a isnt a "drop in", it's a replacement. Even though both freons are hazardous, in our industry the EPA can and will decide which one we use.

Yes I was referring to 410a is the refrigerant of choice when R-22 is no longer allowed to be used. and that there is no reason to use a drop in for r-22 because it has no legitimate use as of now. Sorry to confuse.