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  1. #1
    So I saw this release from the DoE...

    http://www.eere.energy.gov/buildings..._id=6781?print

    ...which says:

    "DOE Will Enforce 13 SEER Air Conditioner Standard
    April 02, 2004

    DOE announced on April 2nd that it will enforce a seasonal energy efficiency rating (SEER) standard of 13 for residential central air conditioners. This standard, which will apply to central air conditioners starting in January 2006, represents a 30 percent increase in energy efficiency compared to the 10 SEER standard that applies to models sold today. DOE had promulgated a 12 SEER standard in 2002, but earlier this year, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit ruled that the department had done so improperly.

    "At this point, all parties have had their day in court," Assistant Secretary for Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy David Garman said. "In the interest of giving consumers and industry the regulatory certainty they need, it is time for the government and for private parties to stop litigating, and start working towards complying with the 13 SEER standard." See the DOE press release.

    The air conditioner manufacturing industry had challenged the 13 SEER, which DOE had originally issued in January 2001, but recently withdrew its challenge. "A lot has changed in three years," said Geraud Darnis, president of Carrier Corporation, in a March 12th press release. "Given the choice between 10 SEER and 13 SEER, we think the industry should support higher efficiency." See the Carrier press release."


    So, who's ready for 13 by 2006? Think the cost will come down enough by then?

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Derby City
    Posts
    3,964

    Hmm

    I continue to be somewhat baffled by all the hub bub about the 13 seer minimums. Anyone actively engaged in HVAC should already be familiar with the 13 seer units so that shouldn't come as a surprise. I you break it down to it's most basic, the government is forcing us to provide our customers a more efficient product. Remember when they did away with the 67 - 70% furnaces? Screaming through the streets....widespread panic. We managed to survive that, and the only ones who got caught were those individuals who thought they would "corner the market" and bought up all the old standing pilot furnaces. What I remember happening is that they just wound up with a lot of outdated equipment they had trouble getting rid of. Sort of backfired on them. WE, in the industry, should be up to this task without any concern whatsoever. What is the major concern anyway? Just like with the furnaces the public is initially upset because they have had a choice taken away, but NOT by us. I wish I could still buy a new gas-guzzling mustang for $6500 but those days are gone as well.

    If someone is not "ready" or "prepared" for this eventuality, then shame on them! It is not some small segment of the industry that this will occur in, but across the board. To be honest, I welcome the 'help' from our legislators to sell our customers a better product.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Indianapolis, IN, USA
    Posts
    34,184
    In many areas of the country, 13 SEER is an economic burden with no economic payback. It would be like banning all but 93% gas furnaces. Would it make sense for dash & Airman to be selling 93% furnaces in their steamy climates? Not any more than forcing people in cool, short summers to spend hundreds to get a 13 SEER. But that's the way it is.

    Chances are between the high cost & the size of the evaps that don't fit many places, I think next year we'll be seeing more high side changeouts creating horrible mis-matches that may not even work and certainly be far from 13 SEER.

    I could see getting to the 80% / 10 SEER minimum but pushing high SEER or high AFUE product in areas where it doesn't make economic sense doesn't seem right.

    So what's next? Banning stoves with calrod elements to force customers to buy a "better" stove? Banning standard $150 TVs to force customers to buy a high res stereo monitor so they have a "better" product?

    Or if we're that into saving a few barrels of oil, let's ban vehicles that don't get 20 mpg in the city! That would save much more than banning 10 SEER A/C units.

    Or lets ban selling just an outdoor unit, require a matching evap be bundled with it and a law that it must be installed as a matched system.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    southern illinois
    Posts
    5,522
    right on.....

  5. #5
    Join Date
    May 2001
    Location
    Kansas City
    Posts
    2,729
    13 SEER is about the limit for R-22, wonder how long it will be before manufacture's just switch completly to 410a.
    Using 13 SEER R-22 on old coils is bad enough, what about when Apt complex's try using 410a and using old coils.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    Zelienople, Pa
    Posts
    2,965
    Originally posted by rsmith46
    13 SEER is about the limit for R-22, wonder how long it will be before manufacture's just switch completly to 410a.
    Using 13 SEER R-22 on old coils is bad enough, what about when Apt complex's try using 410a and using old coils.
    Trane's new 15 SEER A/C is R-22...
    How tall are you Private???!!!!

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Posts
    43
    Will the new high seer units cool as well as the old tried and true 10 seer? I was told that the larger coils put out air that is not as cold as smaller coils. Is that true?

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Burleson, Texas
    Posts
    1,741
    How many 13 SEER heatpumps are going to be installed on old evaps-- pressures in heating will be wonderful!!! How long will the manuf's keep supplying compressors to the hacks....

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    North Richland Hills, Texas
    Posts
    14,914
    Originally posted by rsmith46
    13 SEER is about the limit for R-22
    Trane goes up to 19.5 SEER with R-22.
    If more government is the answer, then it's a really stupid question.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Dothan, Al
    Posts
    3,453

    Agree with Baldloonie

    13 Seer systems cost ho's much more. They are the ones that will have to foot-the-bill, so to speak. With no guarantee that they will save over what extra they spend.

    Have 13+ seer units been proven to last, without much more expensive repair bills??

    I'd rather have a ten seer that lasts 20 years than a 13 seer that lasts 12 or 13 years.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    2,597
    irish,

    just wait until you are forced to buy your new hybrid work van for an additional ? dollars. (thousands, i presume, for the simple fact that a toyota prius is basically a corrola with batteries, but twice the cost).

    you will need to log alot of miles to make up the cost difference and probably won't have the truck that long.

    the thirteen seer mandate is great for manufacturers, distributors, and dealers. but terrible for the homeowner.

    do you really think politicians know what is best for our households? financially and logically?

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Posts
    1,196
    I kind of like it myself. It makes the playing field a little more level. You try to offer some decent stuff, and the low bidder comes in with 10/11 SEER builders stuff. Some people only see numbers.

    I suppose some day 13 SEER will be the "builders" level, and who knows what will be the high falutin' model offerings!

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Derby City
    Posts
    3,964
    This discussion begs the question: If there is this much resistance to the mandate of 13 seer equipment minimum, does that mean there are some of you who don't sell the higher efficiency equipment? I admit this is a BIG step up in minimum seer, but why wasn't there the same outcry when the 10 seer minimum went into effect? There seems to be a greater resistance now, than then. Why is that? Do many of us still wish for the days of 6.0 seer units? And if those were still available, would we feel the same way if the minimum were raised to say, 9.0? I don't for a minute think the lads in Congress are in any way experts on energy efficiency, but we can either adapt to these changes or get ready to endure a lengthy period of major frustration. the industry I see really getting hot (no pun) over this is the RNC. We know those builders hate to pay more for ANYTHING!

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