Question for home owners

[kampeh]

One other response to this thread is shoes. My carpets are clean and my family does not walk on them with shoes on. The first estimator (the "high" one who promised superior service) did not offer to remove his shoes and walked all over my carpets with dirty boots. This did not leave a comfortable impression with me. The other two estimators removed their shoes. I'm sure all your customers are different, but this is my perspective.

[pstu]

>>He said my AC unit is a 3 ton, so it makes sense to replace it with a 3 ton, Vs a 3.5 ton that was guessed (?) by others.

Upsizing without thinking through the consequences is a really bad idea. It could cause your duct system to become inadequate when it was Ok before. I experienced that with a furnace replacement, the HVAC guy wanted to put in "5 ton" air handler with 80K BTUH heat output (AC is 3.5 ton). Since my Manual J told me the whole house needed 85K heating load on two furnaces, I pushed him toward a "4 ton" air handler with 64K heat. Even that smaller unit on default settings made ducts noisy when they weren't before. I didn't see that coming, he didn't see that coming, but which one of us is supposed to have expertise here?

I believe the guy never gave a moment's thought to the duct system, evidently he was going by seat of the pants on the air handler sizing. Tell me again how Manual J and Manual D are "worthless". Yeah right.

Regards -- P.Student

[Edited by perpetual_student on 02-15-2005 at 11:57 AM]

[kampeh]

My home was built all electric in 1974 w/Lennox HVAC, 3 ton AC. In 1988 the owner must have been unhappy with the "small" heater so they converted to gas and put in a high efficiency one pipe Magic Chef furnace that apparently is good to heat a house twice the size of mine with a 5 ton blower. We are planning to get an all-new Carrier variable speed, 3 ton 12 SEER, (up to 96% AFUE) two pipe system with humidity controller put in Friday. I think we will be happy with it.

[coldbud]

kampeh

that's good to hear. the important thing is, now you are somewhat informed about your choice in the product and the contractor. I think this is a good site for helpful information, especially when the contractors realize no one is trying to take advantage of them and vice versa. I think we all understand everybody has to make a living. communication, communication is one of the keys to everybody being happy. If not happy at least comfortable with the outcome. kampeh I'm not a salesman but I have done some reading and you might want to consider a 13 or 14 SEER in the long run. I realize it will cost a little more upfront, but the government is going to a 13 standard early next year and the higher SEER will save you a little more money and give a little more comfort in the long run, I think. Check out this web page, http://www.dulley.com I hope I can give out a web page on here with offending anyone.
good luck

[kampeh]

I'm going to ask my contractor about some higher SEER. I don't mind some more money if I know it's something better. I'm pretty sure my contractor wouldn't mind some changes at this point assuming they can handle it allright and I pay the difference of course.

[dallasbill]

Hmmmm... An HO trying to understand how to close a deal for new HVAC smack dab in the middle of a discussion on how could professionals benefit from HO feedback to better their business opportunities. I think the HO needs their own thread, and since it involves pricing, does it even belong here?? ;-)

My feedback to professionals echos a lot of what has been said here. Let me take if further because being an Internet knowledge junkie I have learned a lot of what to ask and what not to expect when trying to complete the HVAC for our new home.

It goes to what you say to your local customers, and it goes to what you say here. Why both places? Because I would venture that what you say when giving advice here is exactly the way you give advice to customers!

1) Ask me questions about why I am doing something and answer "you don't know" if I ask something you don't. Tell me you'll get me an answer or tell me where to look. Example, don't just say flex duct is lousy when it can be perfectly acceptable if installed using A, B and C. Tell me A, B & C.

2) Understand the practical eveyday living differences of 80% and 90+% efficiency units in zones where cooling is the biggy and not heating. Or vice versa w/ SEER and A/C if heating is the biggy and not cooling.

3) Treat my home with respect. If I see that you are not careful walking around it, you won't get the job.

4) Give me the calcs and explain them. Ask if I understand. Let me learn.

5) Price it fairly and explain why it's priced this way. Have a list of references ready to give me with your quote. Don't make me ask. I told the guy doing our new home that I wanted to be a poster child for his work -- it's his first ICF home. Guess what -- he's ecstatic! He's fixing errors done by the "grunt duct workers" and he's telling me everything along the way. He wants to do just as good a job as I need and he understands what I need. Because we talk.

6) Tell why a variable speed blower is better than a multi-fixed speed blower because of a, b, and c. Relate it to my comfort, my bills and what I gain by it when it's only 78F outside but 98% humidity because of fog/rain for 4 days straight. I can really appreciate it that way!

7) Don't price a Goodman for a $400,000 house, or for a house in a neighborhood where the house start at 300,000 without explaining why. Tell them Goodman was just sold 2 months ago to a financial firm w/ no HVAC history. Let the HO decide if they want into that -- I don't! If they ask about Carrier, but still want to save money, tell them about Bryant.

8) Read and research, because there are more of us like me out there every month. Tell the HO about this site so they can get feedback on your recommendations. If you feel good enough to advise others here, then you should back up your quotes by sending them here too!

9) Listen to what we say and politely explain why your experience may negate what we want.

10) Finally, don't ever say "that's just how it's done" and expect to hang around for another chance.

I've learned a lot here, so hope that helps you pros too.

Cheers!

[Gunnery Sergeant Hartman]

Originally posted by dallasbill

4) Give me the calcs and explain them. Ask if I understand. Let me learn.

I will show them to you, but if you want them before accepting my proposal, you will have to buy them from me.
My load calcs are very detailed including drawings.
I have been burnt too many times to lose the job and find some hack in the supply house holding MY drawings.
The software is expensive and I take alot of time designing your system.
I actually had some hack call me a couple of months ago on my cell # that a homeowner i bid on gave him.
He said the homeowner hired him through a "friend" and he needed to know what size equipment I came up with for his house!

[coldbud]

dallasbill,

WOW.... Good Stuff... I'm with ya all the way. Maybe we do need our own thread. Can you imagine how the two can work together and not against each other. Good Stuff

Bolton,

Don't give up your load calcs without getting the job. Just explain its one of your tools you use to help YOUR customer select you for the job because you are a professional, not a rip off artist. I bet you like to know what your money is buying when you spend, so do the consumers. We are all consumers at some point in life.

[dallasbill]

BoltonNC... did I say anywhere I wanted printed, hard-copy calcs for free? No.
So, don't assume like that -- it looks bad to me as a consumer who you are trying to acquire as a customer.

Did I say that I want to see what you, as a pro, are going to do for my money before I contract you? Yes!
So, showing -- not giving -- them to me so I can learn why you are the one I should hire is the only way you are going to get my business. I am sorry that you were burned, but leave that out of your future dealings with future customers, or I/they will sense that mistrust a 1000 miles a-coming.

I thought the purpose of this thread was to provide HO feedback on how you pro's can win better business?! I would suggest that jumping up and down with a post about hacks stealing your work and how I ain't going to see anything unless I pay is not the tone I would want to hear.

Let me re-post this part from my OP:
It goes to what you say to your local customers, and it goes to what you say here. Why both places? Because I would venture that what you say when giving advice here is exactly the way you give advice to customers!

Please consider the above the next time you want to build your business.

And, consider putting "This work is fully owned by XXX and shall not be shared, in whole or in part, but any means whatsoever, without explicit wrriten permission of XXX" on all your work. Then, you have some recourse.

[kampeh]

Anybody can start a new thread, but I thought this one was good and helpful. I admit I didn't read all the site rules and ethics stuff, but I think real cases and facts are relevant to the topic, including prices. What you see in this thread is real-world. Contractors sometimes get burned and sometimes take it out on the next customer. Different HOs are different and so are different contractors. I appreciate contractors who want to try to understand customers better so they can improve their business, that's why I like this thread. Contractors should not make assumptions that all HOs are alike. I know HO friends and neighbors who have completely different attitudes about contractors than I do, and I think they must be very unpleasant to work for, but I'm not like that and I don't like you to come to my home and assume I am. I can't "negotiate" with a contractor because I want to assume they have provided an offer with integrity, so if I ask them to lower the price, they have to lower the service, and I don't want less service.

[dallasbill]

Kampeh... I made a comment. I am not a moderator.

However -- and everyone forgive my going OT here -- here are some Internet forum tips for you since you appear to be new at this.
It will help you in future for all forums of any topic where you seek help.

1) Changing topics in existing threads is commonly called "hijacking a thread." It introduces new things that have nothing to do with the OP -- original poster's -- question.
2) By doing #1, you deprive yourself of the potential of all eyes to see your topic/concern and give you the advice you seek. The only people that see your post are those that came here for another topic. You also deprive the OP and his responders of a continous thread for his topic that he started -- everyone has to jump around your questions now.
3) Other people who may have the same concern as you will never see your advice either, because of #2. Therefore, the value of education of the forum is diminished.

I am sure that you can see how that helps you, and is not meant as a criticism.

Now, to stop my own hijacking of this thread with a "Forums 101" lesson, I will turn it back to the original topic.

Cheers! ;-)

[kampeh]

Bill
If I was the moderator, I would delete your last post, as it had nothing to do with the thread and none of us who came to the thread are helped by your "101".

[Gunnery Sergeant Hartman]

1st you said:
"Give me the calcs"
I took this as: do the calcs and give them to me...

Then you said:
did I say anywhere I wanted printed, hard-copy calcs for free? No.

Sorry if I misunderstood.
I apologise if i ofended you.

[fixit50]

Lets keep this civalized guy's... Back to the topic, yes some good points are brought up here. I decided to put it here in the residential sec instead of the gen discussion (because) more homeowners come here for their problems and not for the techs or companies problem. My point on this thread and to learn from was a homeowners point of view, what makes them interested in what brand and contractor and why? Our field and industry has fallen greatly because we as business owners and techs do not inform the homeowner of the new equipment and advantages of it, So there is no one to blame here, I as I was once a tech everytime i went into a homeowners home I showed them literature of new equipment out on the market.especially if their equipment was over 15 years old. Not to make a sale but to inform them of what is there. If a homeowner asked me for info i was more than happy to explain it,and to show them the advantages and disadvantages of the equipment. Now in our high tech world of living there are so many differant things out there. I made this thread to inform homeowners and to learn from them what they know or dont know about hvac. A furnace and air conditioner runs more than your average automobile. It lasts longer than your average automobile. We trade our vehicles in every 5 to 8 years, our heating and air systems just fade away. They average 15 to 20 years. Think about it.Lets just stay on topic here. Thanks all.

[dallasbill]

BoltonNC... no offense taken. But, you have perfectly illustrated my point about how a misunderstanding can occur with an HO. I would not want that to hurt your future biz growth so that's why I made the suggestions I did.

9mmnow... I coudn't agree more... and that's why I shared my thoughts about what I learned as an HO and from the pros here. I hope you -- and Bolton and others -- are able to take advantage of all the posts in this thread of yours to build your biz.

kampeh... thanks... but, just like me, you are not a mod. So, start your own thread.

[fixit50]

Why thank you for the hijack d-bill couldnt of done better my self

[mojo27]

I must say when I choose a Service company, I look for someone on the road in a clean company vehicle. That says a lot of a company in my eyes.

Call me dumb.

[pstu]

I have to agree with Mojo about the look of a company vehicle. One time I was thinking about getting a geothermal heat pump system and had learned of a company which was said to have expertise in that. Then I saw a really cruddy beat-up, dented small pickup carrying that company's logo. That made me far more unlikely to choose that company for any work, it suggested to me they had shallow roots and if things got at all tough for them, they would fold.

This doesn't apply to *all* contractors but it surely does for HVAC. For example I am especially inept when it comes to plumbing problems, and called a plumber thru a warranty company. They turned up in a really crummy sedan that dripped oil on my driveway -- I cared a little about the oil but if they had enough expertise to fix my problem (they did) then I was satisfied with them overall.

This illustrates how I see HVAC as a much more sophisticated operation than the slow-drain plumbing problem I had. It is a certainty that a house HVAC system will not perform well until it is matched up with a good flowing duct system, and these are always specific to the house.

Regards -- P.Student

[cem-bsee]

no one has mentioned the need for good information, not just a slick sales gimick stating that these sizes & colors are available, nothing as to preformance data, nothing as to accessories available & what each does --

are 13SEER systems really going to last 20 years?, even 15?

[fat eddy]

Do you really look at trucks and determine who you will call to service your equipment ? I find that amazing, The tradition is that the most prestigous companies out there have no lettering on their trucks and it is for a couple of very very good reasons.