Question for home owners

[mam123]

In Texas all licensed air conditioning (and refrigeration) contractors are required to have their Texas air conditioning contractors license (TACL) number and company name posted on both sides of their vehicles, no less then 2 inches tall, used in their contracting business. If subcontractors are working under a licensed contractor, They must have temporary signs with contractor's name who owns the job on the sides or in the front wind shield visible, or have a sign in the yard visible from the street.
I have my truck properly lettered with my name on it, and this leads me to TRY to keep it clean and as uncluttered as possible.
At the supply houses, I sometimes feel like the only guy who spent anything at the lettering shop - I guess they are all subs getting parts for their contractor's permitted jobs, and the sign is at the work site - LOL.
I do not have a "uniform", but I do always wear button down canvass shirts or guide shirts (read - cool), carry boot covers, and hate white carpets.

[bigalf]

As for bidding jobs, its part of the game. I would suggest bidding on the job with the same size equipment as the others with a clear understanting that if you get the job a proper load calculation will be performed and if the equipment needs to be adjusted so will the price up or down. Maybe even prepare quotes for alternate sizes and use the one that fits. Explain to the customer that you cannot determine which one until a load calculation is performed and that you are not interested in guessing on a 15 year investment in their comfort. Explain that it must be done and you also want to protect yourself from providing such reports to your competitor. To me that's honest and shows integrity and qulaity. Prepare quotes with Good, Better, Best set-ups so they can see some justification for various pricees. Share photo's and testimonials and have alist of references along. Offer fiancing options. Odds are you will be at a large advantage. And if you get the job... Do it right and you will get calls from his/her friends and family, rest assured.

[Edited by docholiday on 02-14-2005 at 08:35 AM] [/B][/QUOTE]
Docholiday,
With your advice and attitude, I sure wish you were in my area as I am doing a replacement contractor search. After reading this forum for the past ten days, I have to say that 90% of the installers posting here are not people I would want within miles of my house. What lousy attitudes they have toward homeowners is embarrassing.

[wasp]

Kampeh, I am not sure so don't quote me on this but I think that Home Depot would subcontract the job out, as far as I know they do not have their own a/c people.

As a customer I would want the best of both worlds, competent service and a competitive price. But as we all know there are alot of hacks out there that do not belong in our realm who are over priced.

I have seen a $100k house with bottom of the line equipment, drain lines not trapped, rust in the secondary pan, wet rafters from poorly sealed supply plenums sweating and r/a not sealed off in attic, and the house was not even 6 months old. The house belonged to a purchasing agent of a chemical plant we had just acquired and he asked me to evaluate the install and make a hit list of problems. I did so, charged him a small fee for that, and quoted him my price to do it right. He asked me, do you want to see the other unit on the other side of the house? I said "I don't need to".

I guess my price was too high, did not get the job.

You get what you pay for!

[retired btc]

Originally posted by wasp
Kampeh, I am not sure so don't quote me on this but I think that Home Depot would subcontract the job out, as far as I know they do not have their own a/c people.

Your Correct in that Home Depot does not employ there own A/C techs, all the jobs they list for installs are done by sub contractors.At least in my area this is true, Of course they still take a beating for selling equipment to Home Owners but hey they have to make a buck too.

[kampeh]

Home Depot sent me a sub contractor very politely and very quickly, great 1-800 service. When he came, he presented a very good bid and I had no reason to doubt what he told me were his company's very high credentials. Yes, I believe Home Depot uses subs for all in-home services, I see nothing wrong with that.

[ahimonkey]

Originally posted by fixit50
Here is a question for home owners , We as business owners and techs would like to know what you look for in an hvac company, what do you expect, for instance, fast service, lower prices, clean and honest techs, name brand, When you call where do you find them? yellow pages? newspaper adds, flyers? Your input on this can help us to serve you better.
Thank you.

The short version:
If the client is an engineer or has that mentality, send one of your more experienced install techs. You'll probably get the business because everyone would rather hire someone like them. If you can't figure it out before your sales guy goes over, have the sales guy figure out if that's what the client is. If the sales guy detects an engineer, have the sales guy say "You know, I think this is over my head. Would you mind if I had our most experienced guy come over and talk to you about it?" In that case have your engineer call / stop by. Note I did not say "has a degree" or college educated. I'm talking about the mentality. Plenty of guys without degrees that have the mentality. You don't know what it is? Read Dilbert.

If the client doesn't have that mentality, then the cheapest price and smarmiest sales guy are your ticket to winning the job.


The LONG version:
Given that I read things regularly at this site, and have been doing so for over a year and a quarter, I am probably not the normal consumer. However:
Clean and honest techs would be the biggest one. If I feel a tech is lying to me, I pay them the fee to come out and tell them to leave. Too expensive to let someone dishonest work on your system whether its HVAC, auto, or plumbing.

Next biggest is knowledge. I want an engineer, not a sales guy. Yes, I do my research. I try to be informed, because the temptation to be dishonest is greater in many folks when they are dealing with someone who appears not to have a clue. I ask questions and I toss in at least one obviously wrong remark [if they miss the first one, I come in with an even worse one]. The guy I hire for the job will correct my error. An exasperated look is worth extra.

Ideally the guy I'd pick also having glowing references from people I know and trust to know that the contractor really did a great job. This isn't going to happen. Everyone who came [all referred] applied rules of thumb, measured by sight (guessed), and ignored certain realities, while overpromising their equipments' abilities. Certainly none of them counted bends, measured line length, etc. Only one really talked about the return air issue, but that's only after I mentioned it. If I had to pick someone right now, I guess he'd get the business. Thankfully, I don't. The closest proxy to what i want is to see how a user here has answered other users' queries.

Also, I'd like to know in advance who the install team is going to be and how experienced they were. I personally believe that while brand has something to do with the ultimate success/failure of a given system, the reality is that how good a job the guys who install it do determines how soon it's going to need servicing. None of the guys I talked to had much to say about their installation crews, except that they were the best. I probably should have asked best at what, but I didn't have the heart.

Price is about 10% of my consideration, but price is 50% of my wife's. We have to agree on someone, of course. So, 1/3 of the chance of success for the bid is price.

Now, you want to talk about the vast majority of your customers?

For the vast majority of folks, its safe to say that at least 50% of their decision is based on price, and I'd be leaning towards 75%. I talked to the people about the guys they referred to me and one of their first comments was invariably, "Yeah, he had the best price. But I was pleased with his service which is why I am recommending him to you." Needless to say I approached the initial round with a pessimistic heart.

The other 25% is their mood that day, how much they liked the guy who came by sell them their system and if a friend recommended the guy to them. Near as I can tell most HOs put in about an hour or two's worth of research on a $7500 investment.

Now, if I can come to a site like HVAC-talk and view answers by a potential contractor to others' questions I can get a feel for the fellow. Then, I wouldn't need to resort to the testing and running out a lot of bids. Hard to tell by talking on the phone. BTW, please put your location in your signature or credentials so it's easier for a HO like myself to track you down.

Rather aggravating to click credentials and find yet another user who hasn't put down their location and yet has consistently answered questions from people.

[andrew boyce]

Originally posted by johnsp
I would think quality of work is #1. This can only be verified by references and word of mouth. Of course thanks to the internet, we also now can find HVAC pro's that have an interest in peoples problems. I find the ones that come on sites like this and bad mouth others for taking part in discussions are probably not that knowledgable and fear customers knowing or understanding anything about the trade. A true pro doesn't fear a DIY'er, but should know his years of experience and knowledge will impress a customer by explaining his design implementation which justifies his costs.

Well said... This is exactly my take on this market. The only reason I have come to this BB is to educate myself as a DIY'er that would rather pay someone else to do the job but cannot find anyone that is capable or that I can trust. It is sad that most of the so called experts posting to this site have the same attitude as the bully tech that drives up in his truck looking to s---w me out of my check book and frankly never solves my problem.

My house was built one year ago in Georgia and the HVAC contractor installed three heat pump units. One 2 T upstairs and two 1 1/2 T units down stairs.

My problem is this: The living room kitchen upstairs are an open plan with a vaulted sealing design. The system has only one return for each unit and the return for each unit and the T-Stat for each unit is located in this open living space. Needless to say the heat from downstairs rises to the upstairs hallway and shuts off the unit up there making all the rooms up there cold. The ceiling fan in the living room helps.

I have begun looking into options such as Zoning or ductwork to transfer heat from upstairs back downstairs using some sort of duct fan solution. I am not sure yet I what I am going to do to fix this but I know this none of the HVAC experts I have spoken to have any solution for me. And they seem to have the same attitude towards customer satisfaction as some of the techs on this BB.

I find this sad as I am willing to spend the money to do fix my system but Trust is the main problem I have and it is driving me into the DIY areana.

AB

[bigalf]

Have you tried ServiceMagic.com? Contractors are screened by someone and have some info listed.

[pstu]

AB wrote:

>>I have begun looking into options such as... ductwork to transfer heat from upstairs
>>back downstairs using some sort of duct fan solution.

This is an idea which is so simple and low energy, that I had wondered why it's never talked about. Could it be because it's the antithesis of a 5-figure sale for new HVAC and ductwork? Is there really a legitimate reason why the central fan is looked upon as the only tool to do ventilation? I'm not trying to be too hard on the industry, I know not everyone is always trying to replace a whole system, I know there are ERVs and the like for ventilation. But feel the need to ask these questions to communicate an idea which has never (to my knowledge) been discussed in this HVAC forum.

>>The only reason I have come to this BB is to educate myself as a DIY'er that would
>>rather pay someone else to do the job but cannot find anyone that is capable or that I can trust.

I know exactly how you feel, AB. My own experience has been frustrating but it's very hard to find an HVAC guy who is motivated to do all the things that need doing. I suspect part of the problem is that Building Science spreads over several traditional trades, and people experienced in one trade are reluctant to try their hand at something that involves another trade. And ideally you would like to have a highly educated guy (Lstiburek?) designing things and there aren't too many like him. In the meantime one can feel pressured to be a reluctant DIY-er. In my opinion the board is poorer for not recognizing this different DIY motivation -- it's not really *trying* to pull any business away from HVAC pros, it's motivation is primarily to get a job done. A job that pros usually don't want.

Best of luck -- P.Student

[ahimonkey]

Originally posted by bigalf
Have you tried ServiceMagic.com? Contractors are screened by someone and have some info listed.

Yep, for a plumbing job. The first guy who came out told me the job required the floor to be ripped up and it would be at least $800. I could tell he was lying. Some people just can't lie convincingly. So I ushered him out. The leaky seal at the bottom (connection with the floor) was the problem. Sent some pictures and desc to a buddy of mine in New York. He laughed at diagnosis and $800. I tried servicemagic, but do you know who their number one pick was? $800 guy. Maybe the person who vets contractors in SC is better. Guys who fixed it, came up with my buddy's diagnosis and they did it for under $80. Took less than a half hour.

Haven't had a problem with the guys I'm using now, though I know the plumber by name and I make sure he's the one doing the job at my house. He's booked the next three days? No problem, I'll wait.

The only reliable way I've found to locate honest, experienced auto mechanics, plumbers, and contractors seems to be know enough to test them. Once I find one however, I'm not really interested in giving my business to anyone else.

Here in Dallas, at least, one of the biggest problems is that the guy who writes the contract often doesn't do the work- it's a crew of spanish speaking immigrants. I can't really blame contractors for using them (how are they going to compete against the ones who do- most HOs make price #1) So, you usually have to watch them do the job, because otherwise they cut corners (can't say I blame them for it) and do a slipshod job. (Like using 2 inch nails to hold down shingles on a roof- that's what I got for not watching them after the first hour of nailing (when they were using the right length nails)). Ran out of nails in the first bucket, no problem we'll just use these other ones. Had a business meeting I couldn't miss. They also cut the ridge vent then- wide variations in width of gap (1-3inches) These guys were working for a company with one of the best reputations- and they weren't the cheapest bid. They weren't even within 25% of that.

That's why I asked for recommendations on installers here in Dallas on my other thread. Knowing the name of a good installer and ensuring that he (she?) is on the crew that installs it will go the longest way to giving me confidence that the install will be done properly the first time.

[contactor]

you answered all your questions fixit50 in your original poot. we/ they want all the first stuff. Advertizing in the MAIN yellow pages gets you there first. The rest is how you present it. Good Luck...

[Irishmist]

Ron Cool, shame on YOU for not performing load calcs.

[streetstockracer]

i am a H/O who just made a purchase on furance and air. price was not high on our list. i looked for a company that had been around for a while, i looked for the brands i wanted, i wanted a good long warrsnty, i asked lots of questions and listened to his answers, i wanted pictures of work they had preformed. with that said i'm glad to say i made the right choice. now my wife on the other picked the same company because of a different reason. he played with held, threw the ball and pet our bassett hound lol thats one nobody has mentioned. if you came in our house sat down and started yelling at my dog "leave me alone" i would show you the door. we have a very loving bassett hound she wont jump on you she just wants attention. theres my 2 cents.

[zzyzzx]

In so far as HVAC, I would only go to the Retired HVAC tech who lives behind me or the currently working one a few houses down. Their houses are exactly the same as mine and I trust them to not rip me off or do a hack job. If I had to go elsewhere I'd get lots of contractors to stop by and rate them on things like what brand they carried, how well they returned phone calls, how professional they seemed, how well they answered my detailed questions, and I'd seriously consider quickly showing the door anyone who tried a hard sell on things I don't need like super efficient stuff that I'll never get payback on or extended warranties. Price would be a consideration, but I'd grade it exactly against what I was getting for it since no two contractors would do it exactly the same, etc. Also, if I think they they are going to send Mexicans to do the work I won't hire them.

[Edited by zzyzzx on 03-10-2005 at 01:38 PM]

[41gasman]

zzyzzx.
So just what would be wrong with a "MEXICAN" installer? Are you trying to inply that one of "those" guys would not or could not do the installation justice? Not trying to point fingers here.Just pointing out that sometimes slang can be pretty darn mean to people when were not even trying to be.

[zzyzzx]

I figure that if I'm paying $100/hr for labor that they should be at least able to speak English.

[soundman202]

From a HO's perspective, I've learned what I don't like and what I like over the years. The thing I feel most importatnt of all is to have the HVAC pro please listen to the client as to what their concerns are, and- pay attention to the concept as to what the informed customer may be requesting.

In doing so, try to be aware of basic things that maybe are taken for granted by a pro, but are probably not thought about by the HO. Example, the fan switch being forever left on auto, or maybe there is a cold air return vent over the return plenum that the builder's contractor put in to save money and increase airflow. Maybe the HO is interested in a heat pump, but lives in a Northern climate. Don't dismiss the idea right off the get-go, perhaps it could be a cost savings, or it simply may not be the case. Perhaps the homeowner may not care too much about the costs, but might rather see the satisfaction of a lowered gas bill during milder months.

Honest assessment of the current situation and to what could be the situation may present you with great opportunities to help someone out. Please Pay attention to the total package. Things like third party products, other enhancement equipment that complete the total integration may be more appropriate than the dynamic duo of ulta efficient units. Only when justification value exceeds expenditure is where a sale will be made.

It's not un-common (from what I have seen) to find a HVAC pro to be so passionate about thier business and product lines that ideas as to what the HO is looking for gets either dismissed or diluted. The over-zealous pro will only frustrate the buyer and inevitably will result the HO asking more competition into the potential sale. It seems as though (apparently even in HVAC worlds) no one wants to spend significant money on equipment that should be out of mind day-by-day, unless it caters to someones' concepts or has other intrinsic value (such as comfort, cost-effective energy usage). The right fit is there, but this has to be discovered.

Granted, not every HO will have solidly formulated ideas as to what they want except for maybe the absolute lowest possible price. Likewise, it's probably not appropriate to install a low end unit on a .5M house and certaintly the HO will not be happy in short order. If your not sure about who you're dealing with, it may be helpful to profile them with items such as Energy conservation, comfort, and scale / scope of the residential application as appropriate.

You can ask the HO:

-Do you run your fan constantly? Have you ever tried this? Try it for a week and let me know what you think?

-Would you use the A/C less if your humidity level was more inline?

-In the winter, would you like to turn up your thermostat higher, but do not because of the fear of the gas bill?

-If you cannot afford all new equipment now, would it be better to draft a phase-in schedule over the course of time?

It's basic stuff, I agree, but often times the most simplest things will expose the bigger picture and lead to what is really needed. The bad ones will always deviate from this focus which is what I look for everytime. It's your job as a HVAC pro to interpet the customer's ideas into competent realities that fulfill or surpass the requirements/ideas of the client. If you follow through on this and install with a high degree of qualiity, competence and completness, they'll be the happiest customers you'll ever have.

[dallasbill]

Originally posted by zzyzzx
I figure that if I'm paying $100/hr for labor that they should be at least able to speak English.

It's a good thing you didn't call them on proper grammer!

[paul42]

One of the biggest problems I have seen in the Texas areas is the lack of communication between the guy selling the job and the people actually doing it.

A few years ago, I had my roof replaced. There were a small group of Mexicans doing the work. Their boss was out at my place several times to check on their work. They worked very hard and did a great job. I recommend that company to anybody that asks.

About two years ago, I had some duct work done under my house. The salesman was knowledgable and I think trustworthy. A couple of Mexicans again were doing the work. I don't think their boss talked to them after they started. I was suspicious and made two trips under the house finding major problems both times. It still isn't right. I'm never going to call that company again, and anybody that asks gets my opinion on them.

I start out looking for HVAC people at the home shows and look for somebody knowledgeable that is willing to answer my questions and not blow me off just because he doesn't agree with something I say. I'm still trying to figure out how to find somebody that is both knowledgable and has the right people skills to get the job done right.

[ps]

Excellent point! Ask the salesman how long he has worked for the company, how does he get paid, what arrangements or relationships do they have with equipment distributors/manufacturers? Then check the answers out. I personally prefer dealing with someone who has a financial stake in the company's reputation and long-term viability (like an owner)! This is not always possible - but preferrable.