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  1. #1
    Have a Carrier 4 ton geotherm 2 speed , Isolated refrigeration circuits variable speed ICm fan motor closed loop dual pump package model # 50ybvo48. I have had 3 compressor failures in barely 5 yrs . I have searched all over and I can not find any information regarding other people having these failures.I have had a leak in the ground loop and it had to be filled at least 1 time a yr sometimes twice, and contractor finally admitted it leaked and fixed it this fall when he installed 2nd new compressor. that compressor was in 5 months and ran maybe 3 months before it failed. The first compressor failed within the first 45 days. Both circuits have had 1 compressor replacement so it is not common to 1 circuit. They are going to replace the unit but they say that the engineer who looked at it after 2nd compressor was installed and nobody else knows why it failed. I am really concerned that it was not units fault but was a bad installation and that the same person is putting the new one in without any changes.
    Am I just a worry wart or does any think that the ductwork or the loop could cause these kind of problems. There is a lot more information I can provide , I have had other problems too and it always seemed to happen at same time of year during late Januaury Thanks.

    Sorry about the long post Thanks

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    South Dakota
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    6,579


    Every semi-hermetic compressor that fails should be torn down and the cause of the failure determined. Compressors very rarely fail on their own. They nearly always fail because of a system problem that was not located and resolved.

    Compressor failures fall into several general catagories.

    Refrigerant problem
    Oil problem
    Electrical problem
    Overheating problem

    Under each of these catagories there is a list of possible subproblems and causes. For example, under the catagory of refrigerant problems there is

    Liquid floodback
    Liquid slugging
    Flooded starts

    Under each of these are a series of things to look for during a tear down that provide evidence for the cause.

    Once the cause of the failure is determined, the solution becomes obvious.

    I have only provided you with a sample here and without going into detail. There is much more. The fact is that a good technician can perform a real compressor analysis, find the cause and provide the cure.

    When I replace a compressor I always find the cause of the failure and provide a guarantee that the replacement will not fail for the same reason.

    My guess is that you lost all three of these compressors due to the same cause because nobody looked for or was able to locate the cause of the failure.

    When a compressor fails the chances of the replacement failing is something like 80% or higher. That is, unless the technician determined the cause and fixed the real problem.

    The fact is, few HVAC technicians have the knowledge and skill required to perform a real compressor failure analysis.

    Norm

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Central Kentucky
    Posts
    6,248
    Ductwork issues & loop issues can both affect the longevity of a compressor.
    As Norm stated many technicians are not equipped with the proper skills & knowledge to diagnose the true cause of a compressor failure.
    Even less are equipped to properly diagnose problems with the duct systems ability to properly deliver BTU's.
    You mentioned that you have a variable speed fan in your unit,Do you have any noise issues with the fan when it is running?
    Often times this can be an indicator of ductwork issues.
    You would be better off if you can find a contractor who can diagnose your complete system not just the equipment.

  4. #4
    If you could possibly take digital pictures of the failed compressor in good light and post them here we may be able to give you some of the analysis the previous post was talking about there may be some tell tale signs by looking at the outside of the compressor.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    South Dakota
    Posts
    6,579
    Originally posted by fat eddy
    If you could possibly take digital pictures of the failed compressor in good light and post them here we may be able to give you some of the analysis the previous post was talking about there may be some tell tale signs by looking at the outside of the compressor.
    Really now eddy, from a photo of the outside of the compressor you are going to tell if the compressor died from for example, a flooded start, voltage imbalance or high suction return temperatures?

    Only a COMPLETE failure analysis at the site is going to determine the actual cause of the failure. Otherwise you are just making guesses!

    Norm

  6. #6
    Norm if you continue to take my words and twist them to try to give yourself some perceived edge you may think you have over me I will simply refuse to acknowledge your posts please use quotation marks when you are quoting me Thank You,


    Yur outmanned here pal give it up.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    South Dakota
    Posts
    6,579
    Originally posted by lmtd
    HEH HEH

    Normans got a new fan!


    LMTD you are welcome to feed on him yourself.

  8. #8
    Please feed, serve yourself I am giving away valuble knowledge at the best price available-free

  9. #9
    I was told last time that they would tear old compressor down and search out cause, but I was never told and I did ask. the first one was some kind of mechanical failure because it would try and start but would go locked rotor, the second blew the pot heads completly out of compressor and the third one went locked rotor again , when I say locked rotor I mean electrical was still good but would not mechanicly move.I had trouble for the first 3 yrs with starter realy chattering , compressor going locked rotor, when we would get that late Januaury thaw. To solve the problem they put a different High pressure swith on the compressor that has failed the last 2 times
    Any way I involved all 3 parties , installer, wholesaler, and manufactuer. They are going to replace whole unit , I really think they know more than they will tell me.Believe me this has not been easy.

    My biggest worry is that the problems are being caused by something other than the geotherm unit. The duct work is very substandard When installed they did not seal any of the joints,they spliced scrap pieces of flex duct together there is uninsulated duct work in non conditioned areas, a lot of the loop is installed above the frost line.
    The engineer from the manufactuer told me that this was all okay, but would not furnish it in writing. I have been lied to on many occasions by all 3 parties and have it documented.
    All I want is a top of the line geotherm that will last its rated 20-25 yrs.

    I guess my only option is to let them install the new one and wait and see what happens?

    Thanks

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    South Dakota
    Posts
    6,579
    Originally posted by fat eddy
    Please feed, serve yourself I am giving away valuble knowledge at the best price available-free
    Others have been here before you sir. Please enlighten us on compressor failure analysis.



    [Edited by NormChris on 02-14-2005 at 09:34 PM]

  11. #11

    Norm

    can you read this


    ( we may be able to begin) what if one hole side or the entire top of the compressor was rusted Norm would that not give you any indication that that would be an excellent place to start ?

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Central Kentucky
    Posts
    6,248
    Originally posted by bad compressor


    My biggest worry is that the problems are being caused by something other than the geotherm unit. The duct work is very substandard When installed they did not seal any of the joints,they spliced scrap pieces of flex duct together there is uninsulated duct work in non conditioned areas, a lot of the loop is installed above the frost line.

    Thanks
    By hooking up that new piece of equipment up to these conditions you are definetly going to shorten it's life expectancy.
    You may want to look at http://www.nationalcomfortinstitute.com to find contractors who have been trained to analyze duct system related deficiencies.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    7,680
    Eddy,

    We all know about rust on compressors but maybe you didnt read the post. The first replacement compressor failed in 45 days. Just how much rust do you think formed. Ok the second on lasted 5 months but only ran for 3 I still dont think rust is going to form that fast.

    Frankly, I think you like to fly by the seat of your pants and somehow actually have convinced yourself this stuff is true, Your confidence is commendable but I doubt this crowd is that easy.

    Mr Bad Compressor. It is imparative that when the new compressor or unit is installed, a detailed job site sheet needs to be filled out with multiple temperature (both water and refrigerant), pressure (both water and refrigerant),and electrical readings along with accurate airflow details and submitted to a technical representative who can interperet them properly. It is very important accurate tools and instruments are used as the results of the diagnosis are only as good as the readings one takes.

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