Cracked heat exchange, now I need a new unit. Options?

[gn1220]

I just found out that my furnace is going south. It seems the heat exchange has a crack in it. Both units were replaced in '86 so they suggest replacing both units now. After the repair guy told me about the dual stage unit, which I like, added up parts and labor for a furnace, a/c unit, humidifier combo, the total was just over $7,000 This seems very expensive to me. Is this the going rate for a heating/cooling combo these days? Anybody in the K.C. area do side work that could beat this price?

[Gunnery Sergeant Hartman]

You obviously didn't read the rules you agreed to when joining this site because you broke almost every one of them in 1 post.

Be prepared to get crushed.

[Irascible]

http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/showthread.php?threadid=1241

That would be #3.

Talking about side work with a bunch of shop owners around is heresy.

[Advanced Response]

You don't want to shop on price alone...
You want to shop for a quality contractor with good referances and is recommended by friends or family...
If you shop on price alone, you may end up with a system similar to kcrossley(look for the trane 16I post) or possibly even worse...

Installation is key and standing behind the system after the installation...
Get referances from friends and family and check the companies out closely,, if one company is quite abit cheaper than the other then there is probably a reason.. Do not price shop for the lowest bid, shop for a quality system installed by a quality contractor...

Lowest bid =may= worst installation..

Good luck
J

[1manband]

I live in K.C. and can easily beat that price:

Un-Licensed Heating and Cooling is pleased to submit the following proposal for your review:

Installation of two furnaces to accomodate your home at xxx Main St. We agree to size the two units exactly the same as the guy before us did. We will not do a load calculation on your home nor an inspection of the the ductwork, efficiecy is highly over-rated. We will guarentee our work until the check clears. If you have a problem with your system next week call the "over-priced" contractor that provided insurance, bond, licensing, load calculations, warranty, and a solid reputation for about $x,xxx more than our proposal.

Thank You U.L. Heating & Cooling.
1-800-bankrupt

[gn1220]

Please forgive me for not following the rules, I didn't mean any harm. I wasn't asking for an exact quote, just wanted to show the estimate they gave me to see if that was in the ballpark for a complete system. I understand buying these items is like buying a car, it just depends what options, kind of warranty, brand, etc. and the price will show accordingly. I was really just trying to see if this was the going rate. I'll go back to the phone book and won't trouble you gentlemen any longer.

[Irascible]

BTW: Who said the heat exchanger was cracked? Did they document the exact location(s) of the crack? Did they show you? Has anyone else confirmed the existence of those cracks?

My guess would be that ten or twenty percent of all cracked heat exchanger diagnoses are bogus. A heat exchanger may not, but it can last much longer than 20 years. I can't speak for your area. But our local utility does a free safety inspection. While I happen to think very lowly of the typical local utility man's skills, they are useful for confirming the existence of a crack if you tell them exactly where it supposedly is in advance.

[gn1220]

Originally posted by Irascible
BTW: Who said the heat exchanger was cracked? Did they document the exact location(s) of the crack? Did they show you? Has anyone else confirmed the existence of those cracks?

A very well known HVAC company that has serviced this house for years sent a tech this morning to look at the blower. After be removed a small piece of debris from the blower it was fine. He then checked the burners and noticed that, when the blower came on, the flame on one of the burners was "rolling out the bottom" He then said the exchange was cracked and, with a unit 20 years old, it's just a matter of time before it fails which could release carbonmonoxide into the house.

[Irascible]

Hmm. I'm still skeptical. But then again, I'm always skeptical. You can't imagine how many well known HVAC contractors have sold out to the almighty dollar. Do they say or even think to themselves that they're crooked? Of course not. The ALL think they're good, even as they twist the knife they placed in your back.

Personally I'd call a second contractor out on that furnace (try to find a good one!). Simply tell them that a buddy noticed something odd about the flame and that you'd like to know what's causing it. If the flame is really goofing up like you say, they'll have no trouble seeing it. If the second contractor attributes it to a cracked heat exchanger, you'll have your confirmation. Plus you'll have a feel for that company's tradesmen (which can be very different than dealing with their salesmen) and know if you want a bid from them. If you're going to spend many thousands, why not spend another $100 to see that it's justified?

[woowoo]

Tell us again why you need a new a/c system?
Is it broke too?

[jdenyer]

Welcome to home ownership, isn't it the American dream Seriously that price that was quoted certainly doesn't sound unrealistic to me. Brand is not as important as quality installation.

[nehps]

Iam getting sooooooooo tired of hearing about us being expensive, money, money, money, I had a lady call yesterday, she calls from a condo devolpement I rake care of most of the place, when the h.o.'s call the management they say to call me, well the lady is from England, she called me when she first moved in last year, upsatirs hot, told her can adjust dampers a little, she bitched about me being there for 35 mins. and charging $100.00 she didnt beliveme called another co. they said samr thing, now she called gas co. they came out $160.00 labor $50.00 ignitor. She calls me and says the management rec. me and she had trouble with a/c, then says Gas Co. charge me $160- for labor and there crooks who the hell is worthy that and she now wants me as her HVAC Contractor, and how much do you charge I tell her I would have charged her $150.00 overtime then she says how outrageous it is what we charge, and says Iam in the wrong busineess, that you guys arent worth that much, then says can I come out in spring to check a/c, I tell her your not the type of customer I would want, and she insulted me call someone else. Sorry guys just venting, a week ago a lady saysyou should be driving a Porsche for a van, also lost another job to a guy $500.00 cheaper did it on the side, you should have seen the replacement, HACK JOB. You state can anybody on the side do it, what do you do for work? You come on here and insult us and our trade, cheap bastard.

[nehps]

You probably like others I came across looking for cheap cheap, paid $2,000.00 for golf clubs!

[beenthere]

Not to talk price, but if your getting 2 stage heat and 2 stage cooling, thats a pretty good price.

If you get other estimates, make sure your comparing apples to apples.

[gje1]

Most heat exchangers can be examined with a flashlight and mirror for
cracks. If this doesn’t reveal any noticeable cracks. It may be necessary to perform a static check to observe flame characteristics.
This can be done by closing all hot air outlets and with the burners lit
observing the flame for any distortion while the fan is in operation. Observation of flames prior to the fan running should be noted so a comparison of the flames before and after the fan starts may be made. Generally closing the primary air shutters to soften the flames aids in the observation of flame distortion. The furnace should run for a short period of time while performing a static test in the event a “hair line” crack is present. Heating of the heat exchanger may reveal such cracks as the heat exchanger starts to expand. In serpentine heat exchangers it may be a little more difficult to detect flame distortion but those who have observed these types of burner configurations will, should, be able to determine flame distortion if the crack is opened enough to cause distortion. In some cases it may be necessary to preform other tests to determine if a crack is present and this may include optical inspections. These are basic tests that IRASCRBLE eluded to that “gas guys” preform. With our low skill level, most, if not all, cracks our found with a flashlight and mirror. On serpentine heat exchanger if the crack is server enough. The flame is still distorted enough to and in some cases will be deflected away from the inlet port of the heat exchanger, if that’s what the industry calls it.
IRASCRIBLE you pointed out the rules to this person. You may want to refresh your own memory. Help prevent flame wars and no insults. Couldn’t help noticing your residence. I’m one of those “gas guys”.

[gn1220]

nehps, you don't know me so don't ever call me a bastard again. Call me cheap all day, but with a wife that stays home with our two kids, house and car payments, diapers and all the other bills, I have to be cheap. Sorry I can't drop $X,000 on a furnace without asking any questions. I wanted to seek out professionals to get the best, most honest answers I could. Fortunately, there are a few others on this board that were nice and professional enough to do that. You, sir, are not one of them.

To the REAL pros, thank you for your advice. I will shop around and plan to deal only with trained pros, even if it costs a little more. I can't put a price on my family's safety. I also plan to go with the two stage unit because I like the idea behind the way it works. Also, the tech that was here did check the flame pattern with the fan on and off. You could easily see the flame blow down and roll out the bottom when the fan kicked on.

BTW nehps, my golf clubs were my Grandfathers pretty nice graphite set. Didn't cost me a dime.

[Irascible]

Since you saw it for yourself, I'll drop my skepticism. And since the mod(s) seem to allow it these days, I'll say that it is a little expensive for a run of the mill install. But run of the mill means crappy. If it were a top notch install by a reputable company using nice equipment and included an extended warranty with other minor system enhancements, then it could be entirely reasonable.

Are you going to be in the house long? If not, don't change them both. You'll never get your money back in equity. And despite what some might say, the energy savings from a typical furnace changeout is nothing to write home about.

[rsmith46]

I'm in KC if you give me a call I'll give you a bid and second opinion. 510-2817 Rick - RES Mechanical

[Irascible]

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[golf junkie]

Originally posted by nehps
You probably like others I came across looking for cheap cheap, paid $2,000.00 for golf clubs!

Well yea, but you know golf clubs are important to some of us!

That old furnace just hides in the basement.