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  1. #14
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Andover Kansas
    Posts
    2,115
    Quote Originally Posted by beenthere View Post
    Yes.

    A Doctor doesn't run additional test on you for free to prove, or make sure his diagnosis is correct.

    You want to give YOUR labor a way for free, thats fine. Don't be telling people that it should be free from their contractors.

    You aren't pay the bills for those contractors.

    Kind of some mixed signals here...I believe you along with many others here tell people all the time that they should not even deal with a contractor who will not do a load calc on a Free estimate. This is a call that you make no money on unless you actually get the job. "Telling them the same thing...that they should get it for free"

    Where as a service call that you find a crack on, the customer is paying you for...so it is not free. Most can be proven without pulling the exchanger, so we are talking about a small percentage of the calls.

    Different ways to look at it I guess…you pay for advertising with a hope of gaining future work. It is an upfront overhead cost that pays off in the long run. (Hopefully)

    If a company charges them for the initial service call and tells them there is a crack, but is unable to prove the crack to them and says for $XXX we can prove the crack. Then the home owner doesn’t want to pay the money, but calls another company to come out and verify if there is a crack and company #2 says yes there is, but it is difficult to see…however I can prove it at no extra charge. HO is so appreciative of company #2 that they buy a new furnace or system from them.

    HO goes to work the next day and tells 12 co-workers the story as well as 6 friends and 4 family members and recommends they all use company #2 if they need service.

    Who made the most money in the long run…not to mention short term with the install?

    .
    .


    The statement below is my signature and just my overall feeling towards our industry and does not necessarily pertain to you nor this thread.


    There really isn't a legitimate excuse for not doing the job correctly!

  2. #15
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Tulsa, OK
    Posts
    985
    Obviously, todays technology allows one to do a combustion analysis and a monoxide count in the supply air stream to prove a crack and or gasket leak or warped clam shell seam with a gap and about 30 other variables to do with combustion etc. If I had to pull an exchanger to prove a crack visually with the analyzers we use then I already know I'm dealing with a lowest bid capable client period, "or so rich they cannot count their money"!

    The concept of "proving" does make a sale, just it can be done with technology without tearing a unit apart now.

  3. #16
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Alberta Canada
    Posts
    2,246
    Hair line cracks are very are to find when heat exchanger is cold, I always test them when they are hot and the metal expands. I like confirming with water. I have done heat exchanger where my pinky went through but very rarely. I would never say a heat exchanger was not cracked when some other company said it was( thats a law suit I would never want to get haul into after killing someone)
    Do it right the first time.

  4. #17
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Andover Kansas
    Posts
    2,115
    Quote Originally Posted by JBM1000 View Post
    Obviously, todays technology allows one to do a combustion analysis and a monoxide count in the supply air stream to prove a crack and or gasket leak or warped clam shell seam with a gap and about 30 other variables to do with combustion etc. If I had to pull an exchanger to prove a crack visually with the analyzers we use then I already know I'm dealing with a lowest bid capable client period, "or so rich they cannot count their money"!

    The concept of "proving" does make a sale, just it can be done with technology without tearing a unit apart now.
    Have combustion analyzers and cameras on all the vans, but it has been my experience that when a customer won't believe you when you say you can see a crack and they cannot...they will not believe the analyzer either since it is still not showing them the crack. For these people, nothing beats being able to actually see it and run their finger nail across it.
    .


    The statement below is my signature and just my overall feeling towards our industry and does not necessarily pertain to you nor this thread.


    There really isn't a legitimate excuse for not doing the job correctly!

  5. #18
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Long Beach CA
    Posts
    182
    It's a good time to upgrade both units to new quiet energy efficient units. There is an expiring tax credit of up to $1500. Do some reading here so you don't make any mistakes in choosing a contractor and sizing the units. Both are more important than what brand you buy.

    While there may be unscrupulous contractors that claim cracked heat exchangers just to sell new units, the age of this one is not on your side.

  6. #19
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Andover Kansas
    Posts
    2,115
    To give an example, several yrs ago for the sale of the house…the buyer contracted us to check out the furnace and A/C. It was April and I found 3 cracks in the old Westinghouse furnace.

    The seller was not home at the time. Freaked out because another company had just done a furnace tune up in Nov of the prior yr, so they called them back out to prove me wrong. The tech (obviously inexperienced) said there were no cracks in the furnace.

    I then met the buyer, seller and both agents at the house and removed the back of the furnace…because on this model you could do so, since it was made to be removed. I showed them the cracks you see in the pictures below.

    We changed out the furnace, kept the buyer as a customer and gained the seller and both agents as new customers as well. The old furnace now is one of my training furnaces that I use for new techs…oh and the day we changed out the furnace I drove to the company that said there were no cracks in the furnace and showed it to the service manager, so he could see his tech needed some training so he would not kill someone.

    These cracks as you experienced techs know are not always easy for a customer to see looking through the burner openings, even with a camera sometimes...but are very easy to see when looking at a pulled exchanger or one where the back can be removed.



    .


    The statement below is my signature and just my overall feeling towards our industry and does not necessarily pertain to you nor this thread.


    There really isn't a legitimate excuse for not doing the job correctly!

  7. #20
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    VA
    Posts
    1,768
    Quote Originally Posted by Tech23 View Post
    Ask them to remove the heat exchanger from the furnace and show you the crack. Make them prove it...it's their job!
    I believe Beenthere is speaking about this quote above. You, my friend (Tech23), are in the wrong. How can you say what other companies' duties are? It is not your place nor your right. I would most certainly charge to remove a heat exchanger. I'm not assured that customer is going to purchase a unit from our company. I would do my best to show them what I see and agree to show them the unit when it's removed upon new installation. When we disassemble a unit, it is our policy to completely reassemble. If you wish to spend 2 to 3 hours of your own time unpaid, that is your prerogative. It's not my job!

  8. #21
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Stongsville Oh
    Posts
    899
    Yes!!!!!! You're catching on. And once you "tear it apart" how does your reassembly work out. No new gasketing etc?
    ckartson
    I didn't write the book I just read it!

  9. #22
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Lancaster PA
    Posts
    68,058
    Quote Originally Posted by Tech23 View Post
    Kind of some mixed signals here...I believe you along with many others here tell people all the time that they should not even deal with a contractor who will not do a load calc on a Free estimate. This is a call that you make no money on unless you actually get the job. "Telling them the same thing...that they should get it for free"

    Where as a service call that you find a crack on, the customer is paying you for...so it is not free. Most can be proven without pulling the exchanger, so we are talking about a small percentage of the calls.



    .
    Never said to give the print out of a load calc to a customer unless they pay for it.



    You said make them prove it. There are many cracks, holes in HE that do require time to remove A/C access panels, the furnace jacket to "prove" show the customer.

    If a customer request to see the "proof".He should pay for it, the same as he should pay for a printed copy of a load calc.
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  10. #23
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    SW Michigan, near Battle Creek
    Posts
    921
    Quote Originally Posted by 21degrees View Post
    .................................. I would never say a heat exchanger was not cracked when some other company said it was( thats a law suit I would never want to get haul into after killing someone)
    so what do you say/do if in fact it is not cracked?

  11. #24
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    SW Michigan, near Battle Creek
    Posts
    921
    Quote Originally Posted by JBM1000 View Post
    Obviously, todays technology allows one to do a combustion analysis and a monoxide count in the supply air stream to prove a crack and or gasket leak or warped clam shell seam with a gap and about 30 other variables to do with combustion etc. If I had to pull an exchanger to prove a crack visually with the analyzers we use then I already know I'm dealing with a lowest bid capable client period, "or so rich they cannot count their money"!

    The concept of "proving" does make a sale, just it can be done with technology without tearing a unit apart now.
    I do not think those little closed cracks in post #18 would show up on a CA or supply CO.

  12. #25
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    West Chester, PA
    Posts
    177
    Quote Originally Posted by JBM1000 View Post
    If I had to pull an exchanger to prove a crack visually with the analyzers we use then I already know I'm dealing with a lowest bid capable client period, "or so rich they cannot count their money"!
    Think of it from a different perspective. Lets say I came into your business, hooked a black box up to your network, ran a test, and it displayed that your systems are compromised. Which in this hypothetical example would cost you thousands of dollars to fix. All because some device, which you don't really understand and can't vouch for, displayed a certain message. Your systems seemed to be working fine. Your anti-malware tools weren't alerting you to problems. There is just some guy, who you don't know, pointing at his black box and telling you that it has detected that your computers are compromised and are no longer safe to use. Do you think maybe you'd want something else to confirm the problem? You might ask me how the black box knows your computers are compromised. I tell you that it detects the network traffic that is transmitted by the malware software on your computers. Since there is something to see for yourself... the malware software on your computers... perhaps you might ask me to show it to you?

  13. #26
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    Ocean Pines, MD
    Posts
    6,988
    Not exactly an open forum area discussion anymore.
    Tech23, get a pro app in yet?

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