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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    7
    First off, thanks to all that give me constructive advice.

    I am a homeowner that had a new Payne heat pump (PH10) and system installed. The problem is as follows:

    After installation the installer told me not to run the heat pump untill the drywall was finished (no problem, emergency heat was run at times but not during sanding, etc.). After this was finished he had me turn the breakers on and switch the thermostat to normal heat (honeywell T8611) and said I was good to go (he didn't come out, just told me what to do over the phone). The fan would blow air but the heat pump would not turn on. Eventually auxilary heat would switch on and bring the temperture up.

    I called him out to look at it. He came out and couldn't figure out what was wrong so he called the "expert" out. He couldn't figure it out either (spent about 5 hours working on it) but said he'd be back to work on it later.

    He came back, did some work and said it's running fine (said he replaced a sticky contactor and changed some wires on the thermostat).

    The operation now is as follows. Fan cycles on and off like you would expect, but the heat pump does not run untill the auxilary heat comes on after about 5 minutes or so (as indicated by the "aux heat" text at the thermostat) the auxilary heat and heat pump run for a few minutes and then stop (both together). Fan will run for a minute and stop (which is normal I believe).

    I've called every day for the last week or so and the installer has stopped responding (unfortunately he was already paid).

    Out of curiosity I looked at the way it was wired and found that the yellow wire (Y) out of the heat pump is hooked up to both the (Y) from the thermostat and the white (W2) from the thermostat and air handler. The white wire (W2) from the heat pump is not connected. Also, the (E) from the air handler is hooked up to the W1 on the thermostat. This all conflicts with schematics I have. It appears that he couldn't get it to work so he tied the heat pump to the auxilary heat circuit. (This would indicate a bad thermostat in my mind?)

    Not sure what to do now, I usually do things myself to avoid these problems. As a last resort do I pay to have another company come look at it? I know I won't get anywhere with legal action against the current contractor. If something is bad will any warranty cover it (by the manufacturer)? I'm in the hole as it is with my home remodel project and don't have a lot of money to throw at this. My last months electric bill was $300 (was usually around $125 with the old wall electric heat). I can't afford to keep paying for emergency heat either!

    Sorry for the long post. Just wondering if there is anything I can do?

  2. #2
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Indianapolis, IN, USA
    Posts
    33,907
    Y should go from stat to outdoor unit. W2 would go to W on the electric furnace. W from the heat pump would as well. No time should Y and the W wires be together.

    Is the indoor unit a matching Payne unit? What brand of stat?

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    7
    Thanks for the reply,

    The indoor unit is a matching payne unit. PF1 I believe. I should have mentioned that prior to the installer coming out, it was hooked up properly (as far as I could tell, it matched the installation schematics) with the y to y at the heat pump and the W2 from the thermostat going to the W2,w3 & E (All tied together) at the air handler.

    The thermostat is a Honeywell T8611G (which I suspect as the problem). I'm not sure how to test and see if the yellow wire is giving a signal to energize the contactor beyond hooking up a voltmeter to test for voltage. I don't want to screw anything up, and I'm not sure if it's really that simple. I am curious as to what the white (W2) wire does at the heat pump (since it isn't hooked up at the moment).

    Thanks again,

    Bruce


  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Posts
    146
    I am curious as to what the white (W2) wire does at the heat pump (since it isn't hooked up at the moment).
    When your heat pump needs to defrost, it reverses into air conditioning mode and starts blowing cold air into your house. To counteract that, the heat pump will signal the air handler to turn on resistance heating while it is defrosting. That signal is carried via the white wire.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Indianapolis, IN, USA
    Posts
    33,907
    On the stat, make sure there is a factory installed jumper between W1 and Y1. Your yellow wire needs to go to either terminal but there must be a jumper between the 2 terminals. Normally you jump E to W2 at the stat as well and wire the white wire from W2 to W1, W2, W3 and E as applicable. Not sure if your air handler has W1 but if not do it as it was originally done.

    W from the heat pump goes to the same place to turn on backup heat during defrost.

    To see if you are getting a call for the outdoor unit to run, it is as simple as hooking your voltmeter to Y and common.

    Payne around here is sold to the public. Used to be Goodman that moonlighters put in and screwed up. Guess Payne will be added to the list


  6. #6
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Fort Worth, TX
    Posts
    11,292
    Sounds to me like you need a two stage heat thermostat installed on your system. The Honeywell T8611G, from what I can see, is a single stage heat pump stat (correct me if I'm wrong, please).

    First stage heat = heat pump only

    Second stage heat = heat pump + auxiliary heat

    The installer appeared to place the Y wire on W2 along with the W wire in order to get both the compressor and heat strips to operate. This is what's killing your electric bill. You should only need your aux heat on a heat pump when the pump is at or near balance point (where your house is losing as much heat as the heat pump without aux heat can provide). Have the proper thermostat installed and wired correctly and you should be good to go.
    • Electricity makes refrigeration happen.
    • Refrigeration makes the HVAC psychrometric process happen.
    • HVAC pyschrometrics is what makes indoor human comfort happen...IF the ducts AND the building envelope cooperate.


    A building is NOT beautiful unless it is also comfortable.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    340
    Originally posted by bruce-65
    Not sure what to do now, I usually do things myself to avoid these problems. As a last resort do I pay to have another company come look at it? I know I won't get anywhere with legal action against the current contractor.
    Sounds like you are suffering from a bungled installation.

    Was this installation done by a licensed contractor? Was a permit required, and did they obtain one? If so, your local permitting and code enforcement organizations may be able to help.

    One other recourse might be to call Payne (1-888-41PAYNE), explain the problem, and ask if they can be of assistance.

  8. #8
    I am going against my judgement here as i dont like to give homeowners wiring directions on how to do their own repairs. Seems as though this is were it is going but here goes. I stress again this is not a diy site.

    First I am not into disclaimers because I assume you are smart enough to know not to mess with stuff that you are not familiar with or competent at doing. However I must make an exception here.

    Control wiring on hvac equipment while harmless looking and 24 volts ac wont shock you (it will bite) can cause very bad things to happen if connected incorrectly. You could destroy your equipment at best or burn down your home or business at worst. Among the control wiring can be high voltages from 120/240 volts in a residential furnace to 480 or 600 volts in commercial equipment that can kill you instantly or burn you in a flash.

    So if you are unsure of what you are doing or your abilities please leave it to someone who understands control wiring and electricity. If you need to ask for a wiring diagram then it is a good bet that you should seek extra help because the knowledge required to do the job safely far exceeds the knowledge required to read a diagram. So if you are having trouble with wiring to the point where you think that you need a diagram then its doubtful that one would help you.


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Keep in mind that more than one disconnect may be required to remove all power from a piece of equipment. If your unit has service switches find them first. Or turn off the circuit breakers or pull the fuses, then check with a meter or test lamp to be sure the circuit is dead.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    With all that said lets get to the terminal designations and colors. These designations are for 24 volt control wiring used in most residential and light commercial equipment, line voltage stuff can be different. Never assume that a wire color is correct for the function it should perform; check it out first The same goes for high voltage control wiring and motor terminals .
    {Terminal name}, {color}, {function}
    (R), Red, hot side of transformer.
    (C) Common side of transformer (See B)
    (Y), Yellow, Compressor activity (cooling or cooling and heating on a heat pump).
    (W), White, Heat (gas burner, oil burner , electric heat, (auxiliary heat on a heat pump including defrost output from the outdoor unit to activate electric heat and turn on the AUX. heat lamp).
    (G), Green, furnace blower fan. (needed for air conditioning, heat pumps and some electric furnaces). NOTE: on most thermostats the "G" and "Y" are connected together at all times when the fan switch is in the "Auto" mode, If you sully R to G then you will most likely energize the outdoor unit contactor!
    (O), Orange , Energize to cool (used for reversing valve on heat pumps)
    (B), Blue or Orange, Energize to heat (used on some systems, Rheem/Ruud is notorious for this).
    (B) or (X), Blue, brown or Black, common side of transformer. Needed on some electronic thermostats or if you have indicator lamps. Do not confuse with (B) Reversing valve (energize to heat) above. York and Trane like to use (B) as common.
    (E), blue, pink, gray or tan, emergency heat relay on a heat pump. Active all the time when selected, usually not used.
    (T), Tan or Gray, outdoor anticipator reset.
    Used on GE/Trane/American Standard and some Carrier Products.
    (W2), Pink or other color, second stage of heat (may be same as (W) on heat pump or fossil fuel system). Note: some thermostats require a jumper from W1 to Y for heat pump operation.
    (Y2), Blue or Pink, second compressor stage.
    (L), Blue, brown, tan or gray service indicator lamp.
    Numbers, see manufacture's diagrams but can be stages of electric heat especially on York/Borg Warner/Coleman-Evcon, Frasier Johnson/ Air-pro.
    (X2), Second stage of Electric Heat on GE/Trane/American Standard. See link above. Also used as indicator lamp or misc. contacts on other systems.
    Learn more about a Heat Pump Thermostat.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Warning: Do not confuse "B" Common (York and Trane)!
    With "B" Energize reversing valve to heat (Rheem/Ruud/Weatherking)!

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------




    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    If you need to see the 24 volt control signal this lamp is an easy way do it. This 1819 lamp and sockets are available from Radio Shack. This clamp on ac ammeter is valuable for measuring ac current. The built in "Non Contact Volts" feature is worth the price. About $80 at Lowes or The Home Depot.
    I cannot say it enough times: You should never go after your thermostat as a cause of the problem until you verify with test lamps or a meter. To do so you are not solving the problem but creating more and risk blowing a fuse or the control transformer. On most systems you can get to the control wiring at the air handler or furnace and take your reading there. You should only replace or change a thermostat after you verify that it does have a problem.

    If your system does not have a fuse protecting the secondary side of the transformer add one before proceeding! An automotive ATC fuse holder and a 3 amp fuse should do the job. If you have a GE, Trane or American Standard unit and you blow the control fuse that is proprietary, replace it with and automotive 3 amp ATC fuse.

    Link to White Rodgers that has a good look up table of different manufacturers. You will notice that Lennox's color codes are TOTALLY WEIRD to put it gently.
    Link to White Rodgers Clip art that has pictures of their different control products.

    I would highly suggest identifying each wire by connecting the hot lead to each function wire with clip leads and a 3 amp fuse and recording the function before installing your new thermostat. While this is more trouble it may save you from ruining your day.

    I still stress to call in a second company and get it wired correctly

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    7
    Thanks BaldLoonie, shophound travisfl and go_redskins,

    The factory jumper at the thermostat is between E and w2. No jumper between Y and W1.

    I'll install the jumper and return the wiring to the original "correct" way.

    I believe the thermostat is a two stage for heat pumps with auxilary electric heat but I'll double check that too.

    This guy actually came recommended by the contractor that did my remodel (he has since said he's never using him again). The guy is licensed in Oregon, but not in Washington (I live just across the river and I knew that, my bad). I don't think it was ever inspected ( I tried to be around during all the inspections) so I don't think he pulled a permit and I wasn't really concerned since he came recommended...

    Live and learn I guess. I'll let you know if the jumper solves the problem. Thanks again,

    Bruce


  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    340
    Originally posted by bruce-65
    I believe the thermostat is a two stage for heat pumps with auxilary electric heat but I'll double check that too.
    T8611G is fine for this application.
    http://hbctechlit.honeywell.com/tech...0s/69-1406.pdf

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    7
    9mmnow, very good advice and that's part of why I posted on this forum. I won't do anything that I am not comfortable with, don't understand, or would have the potential to do more damage.

    I also realize that you guys are professionals and make a living knowing how to do this stuff right the first time(and that is whom I had hoped to hire!).

    I appreciate the advice and info, If I can't fix it with simply reconnecting the thermostat, etc. and if my luck runs out with the original installer (I think it already has) I'll seek another local professional.

    Thanks,
    Bruce



    Originally posted by 9mmnow
    I am going against my judgement here as i dont like to give homeowners wiring directions on how to do their own repairs. Seems as though this is were it is going but here goes. I stress again this is not a diy site.

    First I am not into disclaimers because I assume you are smart enough to know not to mess with stuff that you are not familiar with or competent at doing. However I must make an exception here.

    Control wiring on hvac equipment while harmless looking and 24 volts ac wont shock you (it will bite) can cause very bad things to happen if connected incorrectly. You could destroy your equipment at best or burn down your home or business at worst. Among the control wiring can be high voltages from 120/240 volts in a residential furnace to 480 or 600 volts in commercial equipment that can kill you instantly or burn you in a flash.

    So if you are unsure of what you are doing or your abilities please leave it to someone who understands control wiring and electricity. If you need to ask for a wiring diagram then it is a good bet that you should seek extra help because the knowledge required to do the job safely far exceeds the knowledge required to read a diagram. So if you are having trouble with wiring to the point where you think that you need a diagram then its doubtful that one would help you.


  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Hell Hole Swamp
    Posts
    4,180
    That thermostat fools a lot of people, got to jumper Y-W1 and use w2 for the aux heat, its these type of things that seperate the pros from the hacks, all they had to do was read the instructions

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    7
    That was it!!! Thanks for the tip!

    Just jumping the Y and W1 did the trick. I just can't believe that they spent a full day trying to get it to work... serves them right I suppose.

    Thanks again-

    Bruce

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