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  1. #14
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    Jan 2004
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    Lancaster PA
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    Originally posted by Jim Davis
    Originally posted by beenthere
    You saw a savings because of a better burner and possibly set-up. But take all those systems now and bring them up to their mechanical ability(not just the rating plate numbers)and additional savings would be attained each and every time if the O2 or CO2, smoke and CO were the same. Flue temperature will be slightly higher when greater inputs are used but then it should be known that the greater the temperature difference the greater the rate of transfer.
    Possible.
    But i forgot to include on air systems we adjusted the blowers for proper delta, a thing that is sometimes over looked we people down fire.

    The annual clening and set ups(after the down firing) were done by the same guy that cleaned all year long, so the set up was reasonably the same year after year.

    Hydronic systems were set up for 20degree rise.

    Again, many of these down fires where on units that came with becketts and carlins.


    Not to debate any thing, but i don't believe combustion eff, is more important then distribution, or vise versa, they must both be correct or the other will suffer.


    [Edited by beenthere on 02-05-2005 at 10:22 AM]
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  2. #15
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
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    New Hampshire
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    We use the Bacharach test kit (apx $600). Which tests draft, carbon dioxide, smoke, stack temp.
    How many oil companies check carbon monoxide in the flue gasses? I've never heard of it. I guess we should buy these thousands of dollars worth of combustion analyzers and eat the cost. Or bump up the cost of our service calls.
    Not to mention having the thing calibrated every year and having spares while you wait 2 weeks to get it back.
    And having it bounce around the back of the van while you hit all those potholes and frost heaves.
    Lets see $2000 each X 8 techs plus a spare = $18000. Yeah our customers will go for that. Then every 3 years upgrade to something new.
    I think I'll start checking co on wood stoves too.

    [Edited by oil lp man on 02-05-2005 at 12:23 PM]

  3. #16
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    Jan 2004
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    LOL...
    oil lp man, I know what you mean, I keep my meter in the front with me.
    But I'm the only one with a meter for both gas, and oil in the same meter. I use a tech 60, but your on the nose about passing cost to the customer.
    I bought my own, so no one but me uses it so it doesn't get abused more the need be.

    Don't know about you, but i dial in the over fire draft and smoke first, and after that my co2 is about where i want it, and only have to make small adjustments from there.

    I have yet to find one that is producing excess co this way.

    Not saying it can't happen, I just haven't run into it myself.
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  4. #17
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    New Hampshire
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    Beenthere, thanks for the positive response. Thats how I do it too with the draft first, then eyeball the flame, then smoke reading, then Co2, then stack temp.
    I think the only time that people have a problem with high carbon monoxide is if the flame is losing its retention off the head, usually do to incorrect nozzle or incorrect retention head or turbulator. Or possibly if its a warm air furnace(ugh) with a cracked heat exchanger.

  5. #18
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    I never checked one, but every now and then i find a unit with the wrong nozzle angle, and I guess that could do it too.
    Always figured it was done on a night or weekend call, and they just never got back to put the right one in.(giving them the benifit of the doubt)
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  6. #19
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Westlake, Ohio
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    Originally posted by oil lp man
    We use the Bacharach test kit (apx $600). Which tests draft, carbon dioxide, smoke, stack temp.
    How many oil companies check carbon monoxide in the flue gasses? I've never heard of it. I guess we should buy these thousands of dollars worth of combustion analyzers and eat the cost. Or bump up the cost of our service calls.
    Not to mention having the thing calibrated every year and having spares while you wait 2 weeks to get it back.
    And having it bounce around the back of the van while you hit all those potholes and frost heaves.
    Lets see $2000 each X 8 techs plus a spare = $18000. Yeah our customers will go for that. Then every 3 years upgrade to something new.
    I think I'll start checking co on wood stoves too.

    [Edited by oil lp man on 02-05-2005 at 12:23 PM]
    Analyzers that do O2,CO & Temp run between &600 to $900. Average increase in service work $50-$100 per call. Guess you never heard of me throwing my meters in class and everyone being warned to wear a catchers mask. Calibration can be done by yourself in minutes. I calibrate all my customers units in less than a couple days, and once a year is over kill. CO can detect a bad nozzle, impingement on the flame cone, impingement on the combustion chamber, air in the system, drawer assembly positioning, poor cut-off before in becomes serious. None of these problems are visible by eye. Each CO reading on oil Light-off-Run-Shut-down indicates a specific mechanical defect when out of range. Research engineers at Brookhaven Labs have written me and stated that my CO diagnostics are very viable methos to troubleshoot oil better than ever before.
    captain CO

  7. #20
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    Jun 2003
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    New Hampshire
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    Please give me make and model of these analyzers that are $600-900. I will look into it.
    Why do you throw stuff at your students?
    That can't be good for enrollment.
    Talk to you later I have to go on a service call.

  8. #21
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Massachusetts
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    I too often downfire boilers. They run quieter, smoother and burn less oil. We dont sell oil so It dosnt bother me that the customer burns less oil. If there is a tankless coil in the boiler you cant go down to much but I have never had a problem. After working on so many burners you know what will work and what wont. I hardley ever downfire a hot air furnace more than one size. I notice on the Carlin EZ burners people take the airband setting marked on it as gospel. I think they are crazy for putting the nozzle sizes on it becaue 99 out of 100 times its way to much air. I have boilers that I installed 20 years ago that have never seen a vacume cleaner. They run clean and efficiant.

  9. #22
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    New Hampshire
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    Originally posted by heaterman61
    I have boilers that I installed 20 years ago that have never seen a vacume cleaner. They run clean and efficiant.
    I'd like to have what you are smokin'.
    #2 fuel always leaves ash. Not soot necessarily. On the other hand you can go years without vacuuming if you burn kerosene. That I would believe.

  10. #23
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    Delaware
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    Originally posted by oil lp man
    Please give me make and model of these analyzers that are $600-900. I will look into it.
    We bought two Bacharach Fyrite Pro 125's with cases & printers for about $900-950 each. Nice equipment. Does draft, CO2, CO, O2, temp, & calculates efficiency. You still have to do smoke manually. They (via the menu) be set up for natural gas, LP, #2, & #6. I always print two copies. One stays with the equipment & the other gets attached to my work order as a CYA. Print out includes time & date.
    Work is for people who don't know how to fish.

  11. #24
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    Lancaster PA
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    Originally posted by GradyWhite244
    [i]
    We bought two Bacharach Fyrite Pro 125's with cases & printers for about $900-950 each. Nice equipment. Does draft, CO2, CO, O2, temp, & calculates efficiency. You still have to do smoke manually. They (via the menu) be set up for natural gas, LP, #2, & #6. I always print two copies. One stays with the equipment & the other gets attached to my work order as a CYA. Print out includes time & date. [/B]
    The tech 60 is about half of the pro 125, and of course not nearly as nice. It does co,co2,o2,temp, and eff, for NG,LP,@2oil, and Kerosene.
    Doesn't do draft, smoke, or have a printer.

    I was looking at the 125, but I need a bigger work toys bag, before I can get any more stuff up front. So I got the 60, its takes up less room.


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  12. #25
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    Sep 2004
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    About a year and half ago our company got those digital efficiency testers. I gotta say, they are light years better than the manual Bacharach test kits. No comparison. They have held up fine too, hardly ever break down and some guys are pretty rough with them. They eat batteries somewhat though, but we do 4-6 tuneups a day on them. Model we all have is the Testo 325. Has an infared printer too!

    But getting back to the original question.....all units I have downfired, have little if any CO. CO2 is 11-13%, no smoke, and -.02 draft. Stack temp is always lower when downfired. To me, high stack temp is lost heat...so lower stack temp=efficiency. Consider the Buderus boilers, their stack temps are maybe 350F, the typical equivalent Burnham PV83 is 500F.

    The debate continues....


  13. #26
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    Location
    Massachusetts
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    Originally posted by oil lp man
    Originally posted by heaterman61
    I have boilers that I installed 20 years ago that have never seen a vacume cleaner. They run clean and efficiant.
    I'd like to have what you are smokin'.
    #2 fuel always leaves ash. Not soot necessarily. On the other hand you can go years without vacuuming if you burn kerosene. That I would believe.
    The boilers get checked every year and get a brush but there isnt enough to vacume. It's all in the adjustment. I have some Peerless WB boilers with Carlin Burners that the smoke pipe could be broken down and re used on another job. Beckett is another story they tend to not run as clean.

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