Trane XL16i Install - In Progress

[frigetater]

Now that is what I like...another satisfied customer..glad to be of help sir

[Shophound]

I second frigetater's thoughts. Perhaps the installers of your system also grew a bit as well. One can only hope.

[cool cadilack]

I find this discussion very interesting , as the system I had installed (16i)seems to have things wrong efficiency wise. output at closest register 80-82 at 30 outside other times good temp out say 90.
I have had the techs out they seem to get a reading across the coil of about 20 then say nothing is wrong.
Now my outside coil has ice on it every like stripes on a flag even after defrost. Does this indicate a dort of charge problem? I am going to ask about the notrogen too, it seems as if our problem is off and on.
i think the installing company think i am crazy.
maybe i am, thanks

[jack david]

Couple of observations. I think we can safely agree this is not an install to be proud of. I'll leave it go at that. Now I wasn't there, but I can tell you there was no nitrogen purge during brazeing and pretty much guarantee no micron gauge was involved either, because the nitrogen/proper vacuum man and the guy who prepped and brazed those lines are 2 different people. That's a long winded way to say that if it's R410A (yes?) that it's a safe bet that reliability issues will be experienced. In this case you can judge a book by it's cover. I wonder if somewhere down the line if Trane is going to have to pay for a compressor.

[kcrossley]

Now I wasn't there, but I can tell you there was no nitrogen purge during brazeing and pretty much guarantee no micron gauge was involved either, because the nitrogen/proper vacuum man and the guy who prepped and brazed those lines are 2 different people.

How do you know that?

[rcp]

You can bet that no nitrogen purge was done while brazing as the panel that got burned by the torch was still in place at the time of brazing.

It looks a little difficult to attach the nitrogen tank lines to the schraeder valves with that panel in place. From the looks of it, the nitrogen lines would have been scorched by the torch if they were attached with that panel in place while brazing!

Hopefully there is a filter drier installed somewhere inside the outside unit to collect any copper oxide that was created during brazing.

I can't believe they didn't use conduit on the outside romex either(I believe "hack" is the word the professionals use here). The missing insulation on the suction line outside was sloppy(hackesqe) too. Well anyway, these things and others have already been mentioned, and you said they were being fixed.

It does make me a little irritated that some contractor would leave it like that in the first place when I'm sure you paid a good amount of (non-hack)money. If you hadn't mentioned any of this to him, I bet it would have been left like that.

It leaves the impression that if your paying for a good install, and get what looks like a somewhat hacked install, why not save the money at use the lowest bidder after all?

As for the pricing of a 10 year parts and labor warranty, I'd say free would be the right amount in this case.

I'm a homeowner, but have learned a lot from this forum. Thanks go to the pros for their knowledge.

Randall

edit: I see where you posted that they brazed the copper with the panel removed, then possibly they left the panel in place while they touched up a spot.

The question that pops into my mind is: Why wouldn't a person who is concienous enough to braze while flowing nitrogen also be concienous enough to remove the panel the second time?

[Edited by rcp on 02-04-2005 at 03:47 AM]

[bkliewer]

I would say that their work is average at best. The copper should look much better. Our guys use hard drawn almost everywhere and use copper benders to make their angles. The burn on the condenser is uncalled for. The foil tape is really tacky and will eventually tear away causing air infiltration, lost efficiency, and reduced indoor air quality. At least they used metal for their transitions and their base. There should be no excuse for not having the heat on the first day. Our typical changeouts take 1.5-2 days, but it is a requirement to have the unit operational before the crew leaves. I don't care if it is midnight, they better leave with the unit running.

[Swampfox]

I have to disagree about the tape they used, that isnt just regular foil tape, it is mastic tape, You be there for hours trying to peel that stuff off of sheet metal once it sets up, its not coming off, ductboard is another story

[airconman]

I am just sittin here thinkin....... now we have 1800 people looking over their shoulders.... wait till its done and then complain. Make a list... What is done and left that way, say something.... outside conduit and burn but let em finish and see what they fix on their own..

[kcrossley]

Originally posted by airconman
I am just sittin here thinkin....... now we have 1800 people looking over their shoulders.... wait till its done and then complain. Make a list... What is done and left that way, say something.... outside conduit and burn but let em finish and see what they fix on their own..

airconman, I respect your comments and appreciate you posting them. I agree that it's probably not fair to have so many people looking over their shoulder, but I can assure you that if I hadn't said anything the burned panel would not have been replaced, the line voltage would not have been put in conduit, and the foam insulation would have remained. The owner very graciously accomodated me, but also indicated that all of these items were unecessary, which confirms my assumptions.

As a homeowner my intention was not to cause my HVAC contractor additional stress, but simply to protect my interests. Surprisingly, some of the suggestions posted, like flowing nitrogen during brazing, although helpful were considered unecessary by my local Trane factory rep for residential installs.

This ambiguity makes it difficult for a homeowner like me to determine best practices. The members of this forum, through their helpful suggestions and advice, were simply assisting me in making sure everything was done properly. As posted previously, I appreciate everyone's participation. I also intend to post photos of the completed job to show everyone that most of the issues have been resolved.

I would also like to point out that the HVAC contractor I hired, as I have stated many times throughtout this forum, is a very knowlegable, helpful, and honest person with more than 30 years in this business. Although he felt that some of the things I questioned were unecessary, he has never refused to accomodate me, which I feel is indicative of a company that understands the practice of good customer service.

Thanks again for your post.

[Edited by kcrossley on 02-05-2005 at 10:00 AM]

[bigtime]

I think it would have been fair to the contractor to advise him that his work was going to be shown and evaluated on this forum before pricing the job. Was this done?

[trane]

Originally posted by bigtime
I think it would have been fair to the contractor to advise him that his work was going to be shown and evaluated on this forum before pricing the job. Was this done?

That is the problem, if they are only going to do it right if they know this in advance would you want them ? I always expect people to look at what we do because thats how I sell most of my jobs(word of mouth)and 50% of the time they get no other bids. I really don't see the point of warning them in advance other than you would get a better job but it does not change the fact that this is how they would normally install systems unless they know they are be checked.

[bigtime]

I just beleive in being fair, and if a man is going to have 15-20 people critiquing his work, he should know about it up front. This "quality control" method is a little sneaky for me.

[kcrossley]

Originally posted by bigtime
I think it would have been fair to the contractor to advise him that his work was going to be shown and evaluated on this forum before pricing the job. Was this done?

Actually, on the day of the install I informed his son, and other employees, of my participation in this forum and told them that I was going to "show off" their work online in "The Wall of Pride" forum. One of the installers even said that perhaps he could teach other HVAC installers a thing or two and made reference to the condensate trap with special cleanout. The son just blew me off and later I caught him joking with his fellow workers about my participation in this forum.

Quite frankly the posting of the photos online was used to serve two purposes. First, to seek advice from other forum members about installation questions I had, and second, to identify the problem areas to the HVAC contractor so they could be corrected. If you review the photos you'll see that there were several things they did that I felt were very good, like the ductwork and humidifier install.

The bottom line is that I feel that I was upfront with them about my involvement in this forum.

[bigtime]

I still think Dad would have liked to have known your intentions before submitting his bid. I'd say the aggravation of dealing with this was worth an extra 15% of the sales price.

[chicago installer]

Originally posted by bigtime
I still think Dad would have liked to have known your intentions before submitting his bid. I'd say the aggravation of dealing with this was worth an extra 15% of the sales price.

i agree some of the stuff is due to being lazy and not caring but do u guys think that this homeowner hanging on them all day they just wanted to get the hell out of there?yea if dad knew the homerowners innetions about posting this he should have juiced the price up quite a bit,and the installers should have taking the time to make sure the fine details were covered

[Edited by chicago installer on 02-05-2005 at 11:41 AM]

[kcrossley]

Originally posted by bigtime
I'd say the aggravation of dealing with this was worth an extra 15% of the sales price.

I'm not even going to comment on this statement. At this point I agree to disagree.

[kcrossley]

i agree some of the stuff is due to being lazy and not caring but do u guys think that this homeowner hanging on them all day they just wanted to get the hell out of there?

If you're going to make a comment like this you really should read the original post, which clearly indicates that I checked out their work AFTER they left. I was NOT hanging on them all day. You'll also see in other posts that I made that my intention was to "show off" their work, not criticize it.

[Edited by kcrossley on 02-05-2005 at 11:48 AM]

[Swampfox]

Most of this stuff should have been done period, regardless of whether pics of the work was going to be posted on the internet, there wouldnt be a problem if they had done a decent job in the first place, everyone would have been complimenting their work instead of criticizing it, I hardly call doing a good job and giving the customer their moneys worth "Aggrevation"

[trane]

His bid should have covered the fine details unless you want to give the home owner a bid that covers fine details and one that does not. What kind of thinking is this? This guy bought one of the best systems he could get and I would expect all fine details(as you put it) to be covered.