New Heat Pump to Replace Old

[dash]

Rick,

1.The code on returns is for new construction,at least interpeted that way in your are and mine.But Travis is correct ,it should be addressed,they don't have to be ducted back ti the unit ,can be "passthru" type.If you rooms are small and there is 1" between the door and floor./carpet,that may enough already.

Test:With the system running feel the air flow close to the vent,have the wife shut the door,how much if any does it "slow Down"??


2.Call companies and ask for a load calculation as part of the estimate,I think you will find many that are willing to do that.Ask when you call not when they arrive.

Problem :Get three and one will be 1/2 ton more or less.

How's the 2.5 ton been doing in the heat of the summer,likely lacking with the addition,may have been fine before.3.5 tons sounds like to much,IMHO.

3. Assuming the original home is a pitched roof,it should be relatively easy to move the run(s),from where they are tapped in ,back to the plenum.I'd ask about it.

[sayco bob]

Rick: was this a Factory Authorized Dealer? There are different requirements for becoming Factory Authorized. If so I am sorry to hear this. You certainly do not need to go thru Carrier to replace the system. I think you could probably make some phone calls to the local Registrar of contractors or the local utilities to find out who they recommend. You can possibly talk to the sales reps on the phone and eliminate any that are not willing to do a load calculation. I personally will give potential customer a rough price if they like before I run load calculations. I also don’t like to waste my time when the only thing the consumer is considering is price. The toughest thing to overcome for sales reps to overcome is price when the consumer does not understand the differences in a quality job. Check the wall of shame pics to see some low bid work. You don’t want to do this twice.

[rickintampa]

Originally posted by jmas65
Rick,

Finally talked the wife into a new system, eh?

I'm in North Florida and had my heat pump replaced last year. While each of the contractors I called initially offered to replace my pump with a like sized system, I insisted they do a load calc before doing the job. As it turned out, my previous system was a half ton oversized, and my new system keeps the house much more comfortable for less money. Anyway, there's no reason you can't have the contractor do the calc after you make your decision - in other words, the quote should spec a load calc be performed and a system selected accordingly. The difference dollarwise between a 2 ton and 2.5 ton is minimal.

The cheapest time to fix duct and sizing issues is at the time of install. If you're going to do it, do it right.

Indeed I did. Thanks for remembering me. Okay, you guys have all convinced me...I have to get a load calc before getting a new system. Since the existing 2 1/2 ton system was put in by the developer when the house was new in '87, and a 400 sq. ft. room has since been added, probably not likely that it's oversized, but who knows. I do know that the system is now barely adequate for cooling the addition, even when the two glass doors connecting to the rest of the house are open. Anyway, I'm going to start with an electric company energy audit/duct inspection and go from there. Thanks for your advice. ~rick

[rickintampa]

Originally posted by dash
Rick,

1.The code on returns is for new construction,at least interpeted that way in your are and mine.But Travis is correct ,it should be addressed,they don't have to be ducted back ti the unit ,can be "passthru" type.If you rooms are small and there is 1" between the door and floor./carpet,that may enough already.

Test:With the system running feel the air flow close to the vent,have the wife shut the door,how much if any does it "slow Down"??


2.Call companies and ask for a load calculation as part of the estimate,I think you will find many that are willing to do that.Ask when you call not when they arrive.

Problem :Get three and one will be 1/2 ton more or less.

How's the 2.5 ton been doing in the heat of the summer,likely lacking with the addition,may have been fine before.3.5 tons sounds like to much,IMHO.

3. Assuming the original home is a pitched roof,it should be relatively easy to move the run(s),from where they are tapped in ,back to the plenum.I'd ask about it.

[Swampfox]

Originally posted by rickintampa
I'm going to start with an electric company energy audit/duct inspection and go from there. Thanks for your advice. ~rick [/B]

Good idea, I cant speak for your electric company obviously, but ours here in SC will do a Manual J for you as part of the energy audit (no charge), you might ask if they will do the same for you.

[rickintampa]

Originally posted by dash
Rick,

1.The code on returns is for new construction,at least interpeted that way in your are and mine.But Travis is correct ,it should be addressed,they don't have to be ducted back ti the unit ,can be "passthru" type.If you rooms are small and there is 1" between the door and floor./carpet,that may enough already.

Test:With the system running feel the air flow close to the vent,have the wife shut the door,how much if any does it "slow Down"??


2.Call companies and ask for a load calculation as part of the estimate,I think you will find many that are willing to do that.Ask when you call not when they arrive.

Problem :Get three and one will be 1/2 ton more or less.

How's the 2.5 ton been doing in the heat of the summer,likely lacking with the addition,may have been fine before.3.5 tons sounds like to much,IMHO.

3. Assuming the original home is a pitched roof,it should be relatively easy to move the run(s),from where they are tapped in ,back to the plenum.I'd ask about it.

Thanks for your good points. The existing system may have been sufficient before the sunroom was added, but now the cooling to the addition is minimal. In the summer, the electic use is 4 to 5 times what it is this time of year. I'll research these issues thoroughly and get a load calc before buying a new unit. ~rick

[dash]

When they do the calc. ,ask that they show the addition separately,so you can see the load in comparison to the rest of the home.

Then they can determine the correct duct sizes for the addition.Extra tonnage won't condition it if the air can't get there!

[rickintampa]

Originally posted by dash
When they do the calc. ,ask that they show the addition separately,so you can see the load in comparison to the rest of the home.

Then they can determine the correct duct sizes for the addition.Extra tonnage won't condition it if the air can't get there!

I'll do that. Thanks a lot! ~rick

[billva]

Rick,

Everything said here was stated on your last post in december.(minus the murder of a living compressor).

glad to hear you are finally getting rid of the dinosaur. if you are planning on living in the house for a while, any money spent will be enjoyed in the future.

why do people lease a lexus that they drive from point a to point b, for a couple of hours a day, but refuse to invest in a system that is not only more comfortable but probably healthier for their families.

you live, sleep, eat and relax in this enviroment, why not be as comfortable as possible?

do the load calc. and consider adding accessories to make life even better. the old adage "you get what you pay for" is definatley true in home comfort.

good luck.

[rickintampa]

Originally posted by billva
Rick,

Everything said here was stated on your last post in december.(minus the murder of a living compressor).

glad to hear you are finally getting rid of the dinosaur. if you are planning on living in the house for a while, any money spent will be enjoyed in the future.

why do people lease a lexus that they drive from point a to point b, for a couple of hours a day, but refuse to invest in a system that is not only more comfortable but probably healthier for their families.

you live, sleep, eat and relax in this enviroment, why not be as comfortable as possible?

do the load calc. and consider adding accessories to make life even better. the old adage "you get what you pay for" is definatley true in home comfort.

good luck.

Thanks for your comments, Bill! I actually tried to research my December post to see if your replies back then would answer my present questions, but I wasn't able to find it. I'm amazed that you even remember that far back. I can't recall most of what I did yesterday. But you're right, I need to dig into this to do it right. However, I have to say that if getting a load calculation before installing a new A/C is as important as all you guys claim (and I'm sure now it is), then load calcs should be more widely performed, and offered up front, free-of-charge, by every A/C contractor who renders an estimate IMHO. It's interesting that at fifty years old, and after having purchased new A/C units in the past, I've never heard of a load calculation until today. What can I say, but thanks for the education! ~rick

[centralflinstaller]

All 3 are owned by Carrier and it's the highest quality..top line of the 3. I would recommend in Fl going over 12 seer and also the humidstat for controlling the humidity. I like the infinity series units Carrier makes very nice. 14 seer or higher not sure what size you're line set is but i would swap it also going to atleast7/8 or 1 1/8 according to the eff you go with. of 3 go with the one you are most comfortable with but i wouldn't go the payne way get goodman if you're looking for price and not quality.

[rickintampa]

Originally posted by centralflinstaller
All 3 are owned by Carrier and it's the highest quality..top line of the 3. I would recommend in Fl going over 12 seer and also the humidstat for controlling the humidity. I like the infinity series units Carrier makes very nice. 14 seer or higher not sure what size you're line set is but i would swap it also going to atleast7/8 or 1 1/8 according to the eff you go with. of 3 go with the one you are most comfortable with but i wouldn't go the payne way get goodman if you're looking for price and not quality.

Thanks for your recs, Matt. I'm leaning toward a Bryant--good quality without having to pay for the "Cadillac" name, and I'm not sure I need the "extras" variable speed, humidstat, etc. I also think I'm leaning toward a 12 SEER, even living in Tampa, because all of the contractors I spoke with and also TECO (electric company) reps are telling me that's probably the max I need to get good efficiency, and still get my money back within a reasonable time frame. (It's another $500 or so from 12 SEER to 13 SEER, and I'm told the monthly savings might be a few bucks per month) And pending a load calc, I'm also leaning toward a 3 1/2 ton unit. From all those I talk with, I'm becoming increasingly convinced that this won't be oversized with 1800 square feet. I've also been told that going from 3/4" to 7/8" inch lines will suffice for a 3 1/2-ton unit. ~rick

[rickintampa]

Originally posted by sayco bob
Rick: was this a Factory Authorized Dealer? There are different requirements for becoming Factory Authorized. If so I am sorry to hear this. You certainly do not need to go thru Carrier to replace the system. I think you could probably make some phone calls to the local Registrar of contractors or the local utilities to find out who they recommend. You can possibly talk to the sales reps on the phone and eliminate any that are not willing to do a load calculation. I personally will give potential customer a rough price if they like before I run load calculations. I also don’t like to waste my time when the only thing the consumer is considering is price. The toughest thing to overcome for sales reps to overcome is price when the consumer does not understand the differences in a quality job. Check the wall of shame pics to see some low bid work. You don’t want to do this twice.

Bob,
The company was ARS, owned by ServiceMaster, a big conglomerate. The guy told me that he sold only Carrier, though he didn't specifically say that he was a Factory Authorized Dealer. I felt that he talked down to me, taking me through his picture book like they do in salesman school. He also told me that anything bigger than my existing
2 1/2-ton would be too much pressure for my ducts. He said this without even looking at my ductwork. I'm no A/C expert, but I know when I'm being fed bull. Anyway, my nature is to stay away from brand names. I think people who always stick with name products are paying mostly for prestige. While price isn't my ONLY consideration, I still want to pay as little as possible to get as much as possible. ~rick

[travisfl]

Originally posted by rickintampa
From all those I talk with, I'm becoming increasingly convinced that this won't be oversized with 1800 square feet.

With all the talking you've been doing, you probably don't need the load calculation after all. After all, you've already convinced yourself that a) 3.5T is the right size, b) your existing duct work isn't a problem.

What will you do if the load calc comes back at 2.5T? Ignore it?

[rickintampa]

Originally posted by travisfl

Originally posted by rickintampa
From all those I talk with, I'm becoming increasingly convinced that this won't be oversized with 1800 square feet.

With all the talking you've been doing, you probably don't need the load calculation after all. After all, you've already convinced yourself that a) 3.5T is the right size, b) your existing duct work isn't a problem.

What will you do if the load calc comes back at 2.5T? Ignore it?

Travis,

Your perception and attention to detail are first rate. You're the kind of guy I'd like to have install my system. And you're quite right. I want the load calc only to verify what I already feel is the right choice. If it comes back at 2.5 I will indeed ignore it as a flawed test. A bad test can happen even in the most controlled environment. Plus, logic tells me that a developer-installed, original system is likely to be either too small or barely adequate, rather than too large. And now the house is 30% bigger than it was originally.
The electric company is coming tomorrow to do an energy audit and duct inspection. If they say the existing ducts are good, I'll take their word for it. It may not be absolutely perfect to run a 3 1/2 ton system with the original ductwork, but as long as the house is cool and the electric bill is appreciably lower each month, it will be good enough for me. ~rick

[Gunnery Sergeant Hartman]

I still want to pay as little as possible to get as much as possible.

Famous last words...

I do a load calc on every house whether the HO wants one or not. It is insurance for me and my company that the job is being done correctly.
If the homeowner wants a copy of the calculation, there is an up front charge.
If they buy a system from me I give it to them for free.
We do this because too many homeowners feel no remorse to take your information which has taken you hours to put together and "shop it around" to low ball installers...

[rickintampa]

Originally posted by BoltonNC
I still want to pay as little as possible to get as much as possible.

Famous last words...

I do a load calc on every house whether the HO wants one or not. It is insurance for me and my company that the job is being done correctly.
If the homeowner wants a copy of the calculation, there is an up front charge.
If they buy a system from me I give it to them for free.
We do this because too many homeowners feel no remorse to take your information which has taken you hours to put together and "shop it around" to low ball installers...

That's great. If a contractor wants to do a load calc at his expense, I don't care if he shares the results with me or not. Obviously, I'm not going to buy a system without a quote, so if you do a load calc and then quote me on a particular system, I'll pretty much know the results of the test. If your quote is too high, I'll shop elsewhere for a comparable system.~rick

[Gunnery Sergeant Hartman]

Originally posted by rickintampa

Originally posted by BoltonNC
I still want to pay as little as possible to get as much as possible.

Famous last words...

I do a load calc on every house whether the HO wants one or not. It is insurance for me and my company that the job is being done correctly.
If the homeowner wants a copy of the calculation, there is an up front charge.
If they buy a system from me I give it to them for free.
We do this because too many homeowners feel no remorse to take your information which has taken you hours to put together and "shop it around" to low ball installers...

That's great. If a contractor wants to do a load calc at his expense, I don't care if he shares the results with me or not. Obviously, I'm not going to buy a system without a quote, so if you do a load calc and then quote me on a particular system, I'll pretty much know the results of the test. If your quote is too high, I'll shop elsewhere for a comparable system.~rick

You may find a comparable system, but not a comarable install...
Install is worth 100X more than the system.
Good luck and I'm glad I'm not in your area for you to waste my time...

[travisfl]

Originally posted by rickintampa
I want the load calc only to verify what I already feel is the right choice. If it comes back at 2.5 I will indeed ignore it as a flawed test. A bad test can happen even in the most controlled environment. Plus, logic tells me that a developer-installed, original system is likely to be either too small or barely adequate, rather than too large.

A load calculation isn't a test, it is a mathematical process by which the heat gain (loss) of the area is determined, measured in BTU. You may not agree with the results or you may think they are flawed because they don't fit your mental model of the right answer, but facts are facts.

Speaking of which, research shows that most homes have oversized air conditioners.

http://www.eere.energy.gov/consumeri...heets/cb7.html

Originally posted by rickintampa
And now the house is 30% bigger than it was originally.

And when you get the load calc done you'll know what you really need.

Originally posted by rickintampa
The electric company is coming tomorrow to do an energy audit and duct inspection. If they say the existing ducts are good, I'll take their word for it.

Be sure you understand what they mean as "good". In Progress Energy's energy audit program they only check for leaks - they don't calculate or measure duct capacity.

[dash]

ARS is not factory authorized and is usually more than most independent contractors.

Try Caldeco or Nuccio,in Tampa,both are Factory authorized.