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  1. #14
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Posts
    1,196
    67 feet of active element will give you a 20 degree delta T. Loops shouldn't be more than 170 feet. The 007 can handle this.

    You are wasting a lot of fuel running the boiler that hot, plus, like johnsp said, that high a temp leaves no room for error. If you are short on element, and you are maxed at 70 feet of it, then add another seperate loop. It would be cheaper than throwing $ at the fuel co.

  2. #15
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    New Hampshire
    Posts
    2,666
    If you have the high output baseboard on the first floor then that is the problem. The end run is too cool because the first part is throwing off most of the heat from the large fins on the baseboard.
    That type of baseboard is meant for short wall area where you need maximum heat.

    At 720 btu/ft x 70 ft = 50,400 btuh.
    But you won't get this because there is not enough capacity in 3/4 inch pipe. With a 20 deg. temp dif. from supply and return, 3/4 inch pipe will handle 30,000 btuh.
    1 inch pipe with a 20 deg. dif. will handle 60,000 btuh.
    You need to split the first floor into 2 zones or get a space heater like I said earlier.

  3. #16
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    13
    Originally posted by beenthere
    You are at about the limit of the 007, if its the black oem that came with the boiler that is your problem. The oem has a cheaper impellar then the green after market one.
    Your baseboard btu is at a 4 gpm flow, your not getting.
    Its a 007 green pump. does the 4 gym flow still apply here?

  4. #17
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Massachusetts
    Posts
    514
    70 feet is alot of baseboard for one loop It should have been split. Also sounds like not enough of it. If its that cold there the whole outside walls of the house should be covered and zoned for comfort. Baseboard and zone valves are cheap

  5. #18
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    New Hampshire
    Posts
    2,666
    Some people you just can't help.
    If the problem was the circulator the 1st floor would be 50 degrees right now.

  6. #19
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    East Stroudsburg, PA
    Posts
    13,215
    Why are you trying to boil oil?

    That WGO needs to have water in it.

    I'd be looking at a second zone, or a higher head pump for that much element. The 007 is good for 20 GPM at 9' head.

    That amount of element alone, at 210 degrees, with 3/4" element, is worth a solid 6.34 (rounded) head loss. That's not counting the piping, and whatever else might be on that circ.

    Albeit, my first thought, after reading the original post, was to level the thermostat...


  7. #20
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    East Stroudsburg, PA
    Posts
    13,215
    Originally posted by mlizotte
    Originally posted by beenthere
    You are at about the limit of the 007, if its the black oem that came with the boiler that is your problem. The oem has a cheaper impellar then the green after market one.
    Your baseboard btu is at a 4 gpm flow, your not getting.
    Its a 007 green pump. does the 4 gym flow still apply here?
    First of all, I might've gotten a little nuts witht he algebra in my last post.

    The actual answer to THIS question is yes, 4 GPM is the maximum flowrate for 3/4" copper at 12-15 psi. More than that and you get noise and damage.

    Also, 67' IS the maximum "safe" amount of element, providing the connecting piping is of a "normal or reasonable length" and not full of ells.

    Those are "Rules of Thumb" that actually apply in about 80% of all cases. As much as I hate rules of thumb, these do apply here, I believe.

    Beyond that, if you're running your baseboard to 210 degrees, which tells me that you should have an output of approximately 810 BTU/Hour per foot of element. Further, that indicates that this loop of 70', would yield 56,700 btuh.

    Earlier, you posted:
    I just got a copy of the heat loss.I'm tring to figure it out. I see its calculated for -23. It says building heat loss is 51569 btu and design heat load is 51569.
    So, this zone, at that temp, should by all means cover your entire load.

    If the entire loop is, say, 100' (70' of element- again, a little too much, but only a little... and 30 or so feet of tubing,) you're at about 6' of head, at 4 GPM, which is well within the capacity of even a Taco 006.

    As far as the OEM 007, well, the pump curve is the same.

    Whether or not there is a different, weaker impeller, I cannot answer that at this time, but I do NOT believe that. I was told that they were painted black to identify them as OEM parts, instead of off-the-shelf pumps, for warranty reasons.

    I would like that poster to prove that there is a different impeller, possibly in a new thread, as I have never heard this before, and have used both with the same success.

    Your best bet is to contact a GOOD hydronics contractor to come out and check this thing out and find out EXACTLY where the problem lies. Changing the pump or thermostat, or cutting into the thing and adding/removing baseboard haphazardly is going to cause more problems.

  8. #21
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    13

    upgrade pump

    My new service manger called me taday after looking at my heat loss. He said the heat loss is ok. He said that since my problem zone has a supply temp of 190 and a return temp of 154, that I should upgrade to a TACO 0010 to move the water faster. He said the differial temp should be no more then 20 degrees like on my good upstairs zone. My problem zone has 36 degrees difference. Would that be a 0010-F3 cast iron model, the pump I have now is a Taco 007-F5.
    Thanks guys sounds like what you guys said?

  9. #22
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    New Hampshire
    Posts
    2,666
    You hear what you want to hear.
    Good luck with your new freight train.

  10. #23
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Lancaster PA
    Posts
    68,048
    Originally posted by condenseddave
    Originally posted by mlizotte
    Originally posted by beenthere




    [i]


    If the entire loop is, say, 100' (70' of element- again, a little too much, but only a little... and 30 or so feet of tubing,) you're at about 6' of head, at 4 GPM, which is well within the capacity of even a Taco 006.

    I took his answer to mean he has 100' of piping in the basement, and 70' of element.




    I would like that poster to prove that there is a different impeller, possibly in a new thread, as I have never heard this before, and have used both with the same success.


    [/B]


    About 3 maybe 4 years ago, I took some of the black 007's apart, and they didn't have the same impeller as the green ones I was replacing them with.
    Contractor locator map

    How-to-apply-for-Professional

    How many times must one fix something before it is fixed?

  11. #24
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    East Stroudsburg, PA
    Posts
    13,215

    Re: upgrade pump

    Originally posted by mlizotte
    My new service manger called me taday after looking at my heat loss. He said the heat loss is ok. He said that since my problem zone has a supply temp of 190 and a return temp of 154, that I should upgrade to a TACO 0010 to move the water faster. He said the differial temp should be no more then 20 degrees like on my good upstairs zone. My problem zone has 36 degrees difference. Would that be a 0010-F3 cast iron model, the pump I have now is a Taco 007-F5.
    Thanks guys sounds like what you guys said?
    No, it doesn't sound anything like what we said:

    A little refresher on what I said:
    If the entire loop is, say, 100' (70' of element- again, a little too much, but only a little... and 30 or so feet of tubing,) you're at about 6' of head, at 4 GPM, which is well within the capacity of even a Taco 006.
    Of course, he has seen this house, and we have not.

    I would, though, from the info that you have provided, insist that this guy give you a guarantee in writing that the 0010 will solve your problem. Based on hat you wrote, it won't solve it, but, again, he has laid eyes on this and we have not.

    The 007 is sized right for the loop, based on what YOU posted here, and increasing the pump to a higher head pump won't do anything at all to remedy this problem, IMO. In fact, you could install a WS Darley gasoline drive fire pump on this, and not make more heat.

  12. #25
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    East Stroudsburg, PA
    Posts
    13,215
    Originally posted by beenthere
    Originally posted by condenseddave
    Originally posted by mlizotte
    Originally posted by beenthere








    If the entire loop is, say, 100' (70' of element- again, a little too much, but only a little... and 30 or so feet of tubing,) you're at about 6' of head, at 4 GPM, which is well within the capacity of even a Taco 006.

    I took his answer to mean he has 100' of piping in the basement, and 70' of element.




    I would like that poster to prove that there is a different impeller, possibly in a new thread, as I have never heard this before, and have used both with the same success.




    About 3 maybe 4 years ago, I took some of the black 007's apart, and they didn't have the same impeller as the green ones I was replacing them with. [/B]
    Hard to beleive, although I can't remember pulling the impeller and comparing them, but every OEM "black"pump I've gotten had Taco green inside the electrical box and black spray paint on the terminal leads...

  13. #26
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    East Stroudsburg, PA
    Posts
    13,215
    Originally posted by oil lp man
    You hear what you want to hear.
    Good luck with your new freight train.
    You seem to think it'll make........... NOISE??????????












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