Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 14 to 22 of 22
  1. #14
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    EAST COAST
    Posts
    29
    Quote Originally Posted by waterworld View Post
    This is my favorite question...

    Water treatment chemicals, those nasty things that will burn your skin off and make you sterile all while causing cancer and killing fish and all that, right?

    Not even a little bit. What is in most common cooling tower treatments? Let's go ingredient by ingredient and assess the 'hazardous' value of each.

    The largest ingredient: Deionized water, ie pure water. No need to explain, 100% non hazardous

    Phosphates: Do you drink Coke, Dr. Pepper, eat Chocolate, Eggs, Milk? All of these are loaded with phosphates. And the 'hazardous' chemical Phosphate going down the drain is in the form of Calcium Phosphate, which is what 70% of your bones are made of and the form of calcium you drink in a glass of milk.

    Okay, no hazards so far. I'm just hungry.

    Triazole: Used for copper protection. Also there is high levels in human breast milk, and in amost all anti-fungal medications you have ever taken. Not hazardous and classified as such by all regulatory bodies.

    I know what your thinking. The dosage of triazole in a cooling tower is 8 mg/L roughly. The dosage a human being would take is as high at 600 mg.

    Alright were good so far.

    Those nasty polymers: The type of polymer used in water treatment is also used in toothpaste, hand sanitizer, moisturizer, pet shampoo, and... you get the point.

    To answer your question, we make our own chemicals. And they, like most of the others, are classified by the State of California and the EPA as non-hazardous waste.
    Correct about dolphin being a total JOKE-- are phosphates considered to be a "pollutant"? Is Biocide considered to be toxic? If you were to read the labels on all of the above mentioned chemicals would they read "organic" or "non-toxic" Iam not some kind of tree hugger or something but pollution is the obvious concern, are these chemicals corrosive to towers or equipment??

  2. #15
    Join Date
    May 2001
    Location
    Western Wa
    Posts
    1,864
    I know of one being removed at a hospital in the Tacoma area. And the in house guy was one of the most hard nosed Dolphin supporters I ever met. And we have darn good water here.

    Pulled the condenser water box cover on a Dolphin treated chiller this week and found the beginning of scale, after running the cycles up to what they said I should do. So, at the very least, I will back off a bit next year.

    In areas where you have tough water and hard running chillers, I'd stick with the chemical method, if I had anything to say about it.
    God Bless our Veterans

    God Bless the USA

  3. #16
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    EAST COAST
    Posts
    29
    Quote Originally Posted by waterworld View Post
    One thing I have noticed while browsing this board is a few threads on the Dolphin Chemical Free Water Treatment System be Clearwater. There seemed to be some people advocating it, and others... well not so much. Those who advocate the Dolphin really seem to think it's great. They argue against the criticism saying that 'they don't understand the science'.

    Well I agree, they dont understand the science; because there is no science behind the Dolphin... period. The Dolphin, according to Clearwater, say that it changes the molecular structure of the Calcium ion by hitting it with an electro-magnetic pulse.

    Huh?

    I also read on this board, (written by a Dolphin advocate) that the Dolphin can even desalinate sea water?

    Bigger huh?

    First off, let me explain how scale is formed. Hardness, in the form of Calcium (Ca) and Magnesium (Mg) are both unique ions in chemistry. They belong to a group of elements that have 'inverse solubility' meaning they become less soluble the higher the temperature in a body of water. Now, calcium also adds to the alkalinity of water when it is dissolved; the more calcium, the more alkalinity, the higher the pH (usually). Now, city water is usually between 7.5 and 8.0 or so, it doesnt really matter. When you begin to cycle the bulk water up in a tower, the pH begins to rise; when the pH reaches 8.3, the alkalinity begins to break down into bicarbonate alkalinity or 'P' alkalinity. This is the monster that is the precursor to scale. When the bicarbonate alkalinity becomes over saturated, Calcium, as Calcium Carbonate begins to fall out of solution and onto heat transfer surfaces. This process is accelerated greatly when heat is introduced into the equation.

    Now, the Dolphin lovers are going to say, "Whatever Waterboy, I don't have any scale so it must work."

    Okay, I challenge you to do this: Go the Dolphin unit in the middle of the summer, keep the controller plugged in (the one monitoring the conductivity and controlling the bleed) but unplug the actual Dolphin unit. Leave it unplugged for the rest of the summer. Your results will be identical to what you are getting now. I guarantee it!

    It's a trick people, like mind reading or dowsing or whatever. Here's how they do it, (so I have heard. I have no first-hand knowledge): There is a calculation to figure how many cycles (conductivity setpoint for bleed) you can run without treatment of any kind at 100 degree condenser water. If you look up my other posts you will find it. Now in addition to that calculation, many municipal water sources have a nuturally occuring amount of Phosphate in the water, usually around 1.4 to 2.1 ppm as PO4, so the Dolphin people (agian, this is my assumption if what they are doing) use this in their equation as well to calculate thier max cycles. Then they calculate the amount of Chlorine in the city supplied water, which can be as high as 0.5 ppm. With these factors, they can easily calculate how many cycles they can run without completely destroying your condenser and keep bio in check. BTW, the Dolphin claims to 'encapsulate' bacteria. I laughed so hard I peed when I read that.

    Now, for those that say, "But it works because I can see all the calcium in my sump" Again, another trick. Remember what I said about heat? Well, in many cases, the calcium becomes oversaturated. When that happens, it begins to fall out of solution as well, right? Right, but because the Dolphin runs the Cycles so low, the constantly incoming makeup water is what is doing the majority of the cooling, not the tower. So, the calcium does not scale, it can't. There's nothing hot enough for it to adhere to because you are running so much 60 degree make up into the tower system. Instead, it just falls out in the sump.

    Okay, so to the Green freaks who say, "But there's no chemicals so it environmentally friendly"

    (Originally posted by me in another thread)
    Okay, let's talk Green Technology. If on a chemical program, I can run a tower at say 5 cycles, and on the Dolphin I can run 1.5, then which is truly "Green"? Here's food for thought-

    If you have a 1000 tons of cooling that averages 80% load, 12 hours per day, at a 10 degree Delta T, then the evaporation rate would be 30 gpm or 21,600 gallons per day. That is fixed. However the bleed rate at 1.5 cycles is 60 gpm or 43,200 gallons per day. At FIVE cycles the bleed rate falls to 8 gpm, (yes that much) or 5,760 gallons per day. So by using chemicals, which are organic and non hazardous or harmful to the watersupply, you are saving almost 14,000,000 gallons of water per year. In California, that's HUGE! Now, at roughly $2.00 per thousand gallons of makeup, and $2.50 per thousand gallons of bleed, (sewer) that's $63,000 in real money that a facility would save by using good water chemistry. Now stop and think how much you would pay for that chemical program. A good rule of thumb is $1.00 per ton per month. So, that would be $12,000 worth of chemical and service for a year. That's a pretty big payback, verses the Dophin.

    That is the problem with the Dolphin, they sell a piece of equipment that does absolutely nothing except suck electricity and wastes water. Here are some links of studies done where the Dolphin has been used:

    http://www.prochemtech.com/Literatur.../dolphin1.html

    http://www.prochemtech.com/Literatur.../dolphin2.html

    http://www.prochemtech.com/Literatur.../dolphin3.html

    I hope I have been helpful. There are some chemical free devices that do work to remove calcium, but beware... calcium, in addtion to being a scale forming nuicance, also acts as a pH buffer against corrosion on steel. If your water treater uses a good program, then there is nothing 'Greener' and more effective that a quality chemical treatment!
    Dolphin is total junk that is true!!!! Back we go to the Copper Silver debate again!!! The CU and AG work period unless the ph is too high, which we both agree to. I have used the Copper Silver anodes for years on towers in conjunction with a magnetic scale control unit which is the only one of its kind that i have seen work, this unit operates on the premise of collodial physics, sweeper jets in the tower basin, liquid solid separator, i have even run towers of up to 1500-2k ppm with no scaling, it just works and i have no idea how to market it thou, i do have numerous installation references of customers for years and years now.

  4. #17

    Dolphin

    Quote Originally Posted by waterworld View Post
    Wait, not to beat a dead horse here, but are you saying that your condenser water has 140 ppm of hardness? That's insanity! I run towers at 900 to 1200 ppm of Total Hardness without scaling. 140? Are you kidding, the city water hardness at my house is 220 ppm. Of course the tower is clean, 140 could never build up enough alkalinity to even cause scale.

    Seriously, I know I sound a little like a jerk here, and it really has been a long day, and I apologize for my tone. But this gadget has caused more towers in California to collapse than you could ever beleive. If you are indeed saying that your cycled bulk water is at 140 ppm, then you need to fire your chemical guy and save some electricity by throwing the Dolphin in the trash. You dont need any treatment at all. I suspect the problems you are having with the other towers is being caused by your chemical guy. The only thing it sounds like you need is a pool float with some Bromine tablets in it.
    Waterworld,
    Here is a link to a report from Sacramento Municipal Utility District that was conducted at an MCI facility by BCI Solutions in the local region. I have also included another link to a report a number of years ago by SMUD themselves. These links may give you and others a little more insight overall.

    http://www.smud.org/en/education-saf...l%20Report.pdf
    http://www.smud.org/en/education-saf...PulsePower.pdf

    As hopefully you would know, water conditions at any given site, along with dynamics of the refrigeration system and the average wet-bulb, will directly affect the processes utilized to facilitate maintaining a clean condenser whether you are using chemicals or other products. Having said that, we have installed dozens of the Dolphin units at existing and new sites with great success. The installation of the Dolphin on existing condensers has allowed us to eliminate chemical use at this most of these sites and minimize it at others, along with helping remove any existing scale. Whether you use chemicals or the Dolphin, you service your condenser at appropriate intervals. I will say that the service costs are greatly reduced utilizing the Dolphin.
    Once again, each site must be evaluated as to the water conditions that are prevalent, but we have found that the Dolphin has eliminated and/or reduced the chemicals that are required in every instance.
    Honestly, reading your posts, I would agree with you that you are coming off as a jerk. I am not trying to be mean but it seems that you have a chip on your shoulder for some reason or maybe you have a vested interest in a chemical service company or something. As for condensers that have "collapsed" here in California due to the use of the Dolphin, I find that hard to believe. Actually, I have seen more harm done with chemicals and poor service than anything else. If someone has allowed a condenser to "collapse" or simply completely scale up, no matter what water treatment technology they utilize, they should perhaps re-evaluate who they use to service their condensers. No service tech should allow any condenser to get to the point of complete failure.
    Anyway, I hope this post might help some that are looking for better methods of maintaining their condensers, as we personally tested a lot of methods over the many, many years I have been in this business, and the Dolphin is one that actually works in most applications.
    By the way Waterworld, I might suggest you utilize your spell check.

  5. #18
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    58
    Quote Originally Posted by Commercial User View Post
    Waterworld,
    Here is a link to a report from Sacramento Municipal Utility District that was conducted at an MCI facility by BCI Solutions in the local region. I have also included another link to a report a number of years ago by SMUD themselves. These links may give you and others a little more insight overall.

    www.smud.org/en/education-safety/cat/.../MCI%20Final%20Report.pdf
    www.smud.org/en/education-safety/cat/Documents/PulsePower.pdf

    As hopefully you would know, water conditions at any given site, along with dynamics of the refrigeration system and the average wet-bulb, will directly affect the processes utilized to facilitate maintaining a clean condenser whether you are using chemicals or other products. Having said that, we have installed dozens of the Dolphin units at existing and new sites with great success. The installation of the Dolphin on existing condensers has allowed us to eliminate chemical use at this most of these sites and minimize it at others, along with helping remove any existing scale. Whether you use chemicals or the Dolphin, you service your condenser at appropriate intervals. I will say that the service costs are greatly reduced utilizing the Dolphin.
    Once again, each site must be evaluated as to the water conditions that are prevalent, but we have found that the Dolphin has eliminated and/or reduced the chemicals that are required in every instance.
    Honestly, reading your posts, I would agree with you that you are coming off as a jerk. I am not trying to be mean but it seems that you have a chip on your shoulder for some reason or maybe you have a vested interest in a chemical service company or something. As for condensers that have "collapsed" here in California due to the use of the Dolphin, I find that hard to believe. Actually, I have seen more harm done with chemicals and poor service than anything else. If someone has allowed a condenser to "collapse" or simply completely scale up, no matter what water treatment technology they utilize, they should perhaps re-evaluate who they use to service their condensers. No service tech should allow any condenser to get to the point of complete failure.
    Anyway, I hope this post might help some that are looking for better methods of maintaining their condensers, as we personally tested a lot of methods over the many, many years I have been in this business, and the Dolphin is one that actually works in most applications.
    By the way Waterworld, I might suggest you utilize your spell check.
    Everyone on this site knows that I do not try and sell anything. I don't advertise the company I work for nor do I try and steer anyone to any given technology. I do however try and steer people away from bunk technologies.

    I don't know what your background is, but I do know that you did not dispute one single fact I laid out. All you said is that water is different at every site. Well that is true, and the Dolphin or the Pulse Power units don't work at any of them. Physics can be annoying, I know. Why don't you disconnect power to the unit, not the controller but the actual Dolphin unit, and give it a month. Your results will be exactly the same. There is nothing to debate here. It's like trying to prove that the world is round. It is; we know this to be fact; most people believe it; but for some reason there is still a Flat Earth Society. Same situation we have here. Come back with some science and we can talk. Otherwise, don't raise dead threads with a bunch hooey.

    I also never said a condenser collapsed. I'll check my spelling after you buy some glasses. I said that TOWERS collapsed. A cooling tower will collapse when the deposits on the fill becomes dense and compacted. This causes the struts that hold the fill pack to collapse... therefore, the tower, not condenser has collapsed.

    As for the 'studies' you cite... I am aware of these. They have been defunct for quite some time. These are from 2002 or 2003 and about 2 years after that, a Chemistry Professor by the name of Dr. Anthony Carter wrote a peer reviewed position paper for the AWT and for ASHRAE reviewing these very studies and how their own data conflicts with itself. Fact is that this study is nothing more than a sales pitch... and apparently you bought it!

    Peace out. Your friend,

    The Jerk

  6. #19
    I was reading the discussion which by the way I found it very entertaining.

    So I understand you're talking about no need for water treatment when you're working with very low Cc's. Are we only talking about scale prevention or corrosion and bacteria control as well??

    Also, I noticed in the state of Florida most cooling towers operate with very low Cc's from 2 to 3 (WITH chemical treatment). The only places able to operate at higher Cc's are dosing acid, and are still reaching relatively low Cc's from 4 to 5. I believe that is because the water in Florida is very alkaline, which causes that pH to increase very fast and Calcium to precipitate.

    Facilities looking to save water are opting for water softeners which come with operational cost (and salt consumption), but saves a lot of headaches.

  7. #20
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Miami
    Posts
    258
    Does "Cc's" equal cycles of concentration?

    Yes the water in Florida is very akaline. IIRC PH is around 9.45. Hardness is around 350 micro siemens and the desired conductivity of my tower water is 1750-1800.

    I had a dolphin system (and no I didn't approve of it). It went through a titanium palte heat exchanger and back to a cooling tower. No big problem with scale. Huge problem with rust. Now a guy like waterworld knows that iron can help reduce scale. But who cares, scale is no problem when your bleed rate amounts to running your tower on straight city water

    Water treatment has been around for a long time. If it was possible to do what some claim everyone would have been doing it a long time ago. If someone wants to look for an alternative stay with something proven like cathodic protection as used on stell hull boats.

  8. #21
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    58
    Quote Originally Posted by giugix View Post
    I was reading the discussion which by the way I found it very entertaining.

    So I understand you're talking about no need for water treatment when you're working with very low Cc's. Are we only talking about scale prevention or corrosion and bacteria control as well??

    Also, I noticed in the state of Florida most cooling towers operate with very low Cc's from 2 to 3 (WITH chemical treatment). The only places able to operate at higher Cc's are dosing acid, and are still reaching relatively low Cc's from 4 to 5. I believe that is because the water in Florida is very alkaline, which causes that pH to increase very fast and Calcium to precipitate.

    Facilities looking to save water are opting for water softeners which come with operational cost (and salt consumption), but saves a lot of headaches.
    I was reading through my old post to refresh my memory. I have to correct a couple of errors I typed, I don't know why but I kept on mixing up bicarbonate and carbonate alkalinity... maybe too many beers? Anyhow, calcium exists in the bicarbonate form in solution and will precipitate in the carbonate form.... not the other way around which I apparently stated. I just wanted to get that on the record.

    Anyhow, softeners and cooling towers don't mix well. A lot of people use softeners but they are shortening the life of their equipment by a lot. In order to soften water, you exchange the calcium ion , in the form of calcium bicarbonate with the sodium ion, into sodium bicarbonate. Now, google what sodium bicarbonate is... that's right, baking soda. Now, take some good old arm and hammer and pour a little out onto a piece of steel and add a little water, now let it sit for a couple days. When you come back... rust and corrosion and nasties.

    Soft water is extremely corrosive. The softener companies argue against that fact... but they don't know what they are talking about. I sell softeners too, but I would never recommend putting one on a tower. Calcium is an excellent corrosion inhibitor and will prevent corrosion... as long as you keep it in solution and not on the tubes! Do not mistake this with the old engineers tale that a little scale is good because it protects the tubes. That just bull ****. There is no such thing as good scale!!!

    The other problem with softeners... they exhaust or channel at high demand times. When you cycle a tower up with soft water the pH is very high, (above 9) then it fails or channels, you will scale right away because calcium is no bueno at that pH even with chemical. But soft water pH is higher than hard water because of the baking soda.

    Oh yeah, back to corrosion. Copper does not like pH levels below 6 and above 9. So when you are above 9 then you may be corroding condenser tubes or heat exchangers.

    There is a technology know as 'zero blow down' that uses soft water to cycle up to 50 or 60 cycles in a tower without having to blow down. I was taken with this for a time as well... then I learned that high TDS water, (higher than 5,000 umhos) does NOT have the same heat retention capabilities as low TDS water, (lower than 5,000 umhos). So you will not get the same efficiency and it will acutally cost you more in electricity since the chillers have to work harder to remove the same amount of heat. There are several other problems with this including corrosion and biological growth but you get the idea. Another problem is the high concentrations of chlorides at those cycles which corrode the **** out of everything including stainless.

    Bottom line... don't use soft water in towers!!!

    When you say low cycles of 4 - 5, keep in mind that the higher the TDS the heavier the water is, (lbs per gallon) which becomes increasing expensive to pump. Pure water is 8.34 lbs per gallon, water heavily saturated with dissolved solids may get much heavier making it much more expensive to pump as well as less capable of absorbing the heat from the condenser tubes.

    Anyhow, I hope this makes sense. Let me know if I wasn't clear on anything.

  9. #22
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    West Monroe, LA
    Posts
    69
    We recently trialed a UV light system called UVOX at our facility that did not work out well. Promised to be chemical free but after less than two months we had to pull the plug due to corrosion. Cycling up three times we saw terrible results so we went back to chemical treatment.

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Comfortech Show Promo Image

Related Forums

Plumbing Talks | Contractor Magazine
Forums | Electrical Construction & Maintenance (EC&M) Magazine
Comfortech365 Virtual Event