Correct about dolphin being a total JOKE-- are phosphates considered to be a "pollutant"? Is Biocide considered to be toxic? If you were to read the labels on all of the above mentioned chemicals would they read "organic" or "non-toxic" Iam not some kind of tree hugger or something but pollution is the obvious concern, are these chemicals corrosive to towers or equipment??
Originally Posted by waterworld
I know of one being removed at a hospital in the Tacoma area. And the in house guy was one of the most hard nosed Dolphin supporters I ever met. And we have darn good water here.
Pulled the condenser water box cover on a Dolphin treated chiller this week and found the beginning of scale, after running the cycles up to what they said I should do. So, at the very least, I will back off a bit next year.
In areas where you have tough water and hard running chillers, I'd stick with the chemical method, if I had anything to say about it.
God Bless our Veterans
God Bless the USA
Dolphin is total junk that is true!!!! Back we go to the Copper Silver debate again!!! The CU and AG work period unless the ph is too high, which we both agree to. I have used the Copper Silver anodes for years on towers in conjunction with a magnetic scale control unit which is the only one of its kind that i have seen work, this unit operates on the premise of collodial physics, sweeper jets in the tower basin, liquid solid separator, i have even run towers of up to 1500-2k ppm with no scaling, it just works and i have no idea how to market it thou, i do have numerous installation references of customers for years and years now.
Originally Posted by waterworld
Originally Posted by waterworld
Here is a link to a report from Sacramento Municipal Utility District that was conducted at an MCI facility by BCI Solutions in the local region. I have also included another link to a report a number of years ago by SMUD themselves. These links may give you and others a little more insight overall.
As hopefully you would know, water conditions at any given site, along with dynamics of the refrigeration system and the average wet-bulb, will directly affect the processes utilized to facilitate maintaining a clean condenser whether you are using chemicals or other products. Having said that, we have installed dozens of the Dolphin units at existing and new sites with great success. The installation of the Dolphin on existing condensers has allowed us to eliminate chemical use at this most of these sites and minimize it at others, along with helping remove any existing scale. Whether you use chemicals or the Dolphin, you service your condenser at appropriate intervals. I will say that the service costs are greatly reduced utilizing the Dolphin.
Once again, each site must be evaluated as to the water conditions that are prevalent, but we have found that the Dolphin has eliminated and/or reduced the chemicals that are required in every instance.
Honestly, reading your posts, I would agree with you that you are coming off as a jerk. I am not trying to be mean but it seems that you have a chip on your shoulder for some reason or maybe you have a vested interest in a chemical service company or something. As for condensers that have "collapsed" here in California due to the use of the Dolphin, I find that hard to believe. Actually, I have seen more harm done with chemicals and poor service than anything else. If someone has allowed a condenser to "collapse" or simply completely scale up, no matter what water treatment technology they utilize, they should perhaps re-evaluate who they use to service their condensers. No service tech should allow any condenser to get to the point of complete failure.
Anyway, I hope this post might help some that are looking for better methods of maintaining their condensers, as we personally tested a lot of methods over the many, many years I have been in this business, and the Dolphin is one that actually works in most applications.
By the way Waterworld, I might suggest you utilize your spell check.
Everyone on this site knows that I do not try and sell anything. I don't advertise the company I work for nor do I try and steer anyone to any given technology. I do however try and steer people away from bunk technologies.
Originally Posted by Commercial User
I don't know what your background is, but I do know that you did not dispute one single fact I laid out. All you said is that water is different at every site. Well that is true, and the Dolphin or the Pulse Power units don't work at any of them. Physics can be annoying, I know. Why don't you disconnect power to the unit, not the controller but the actual Dolphin unit, and give it a month. Your results will be exactly the same. There is nothing to debate here. It's like trying to prove that the world is round. It is; we know this to be fact; most people believe it; but for some reason there is still a Flat Earth Society. Same situation we have here. Come back with some science and we can talk. Otherwise, don't raise dead threads with a bunch hooey.
I also never said a condenser collapsed. I'll check my spelling after you buy some glasses. I said that TOWERS collapsed. A cooling tower will collapse when the deposits on the fill becomes dense and compacted. This causes the struts that hold the fill pack to collapse... therefore, the tower, not condenser has collapsed.
As for the 'studies' you cite... I am aware of these. They have been defunct for quite some time. These are from 2002 or 2003 and about 2 years after that, a Chemistry Professor by the name of Dr. Anthony Carter wrote a peer reviewed position paper for the AWT and for ASHRAE reviewing these very studies and how their own data conflicts with itself. Fact is that this study is nothing more than a sales pitch... and apparently you bought it!
Peace out. Your friend,
I was reading the discussion which by the way I found it very entertaining.
So I understand you're talking about no need for water treatment when you're working with very low Cc's. Are we only talking about scale prevention or corrosion and bacteria control as well??
Also, I noticed in the state of Florida most cooling towers operate with very low Cc's from 2 to 3 (WITH chemical treatment). The only places able to operate at higher Cc's are dosing acid, and are still reaching relatively low Cc's from 4 to 5. I believe that is because the water in Florida is very alkaline, which causes that pH to increase very fast and Calcium to precipitate.
Facilities looking to save water are opting for water softeners which come with operational cost (and salt consumption), but saves a lot of headaches.
Does "Cc's" equal cycles of concentration?
Yes the water in Florida is very akaline. IIRC PH is around 9.45. Hardness is around 350 micro siemens and the desired conductivity of my tower water is 1750-1800.
I had a dolphin system (and no I didn't approve of it). It went through a titanium palte heat exchanger and back to a cooling tower. No big problem with scale. Huge problem with rust. Now a guy like waterworld knows that iron can help reduce scale. But who cares, scale is no problem when your bleed rate amounts to running your tower on straight city water
Water treatment has been around for a long time. If it was possible to do what some claim everyone would have been doing it a long time ago. If someone wants to look for an alternative stay with something proven like cathodic protection as used on stell hull boats.
I was reading through my old post to refresh my memory. I have to correct a couple of errors I typed, I don't know why but I kept on mixing up bicarbonate and carbonate alkalinity... maybe too many beers? Anyhow, calcium exists in the bicarbonate form in solution and will precipitate in the carbonate form.... not the other way around which I apparently stated. I just wanted to get that on the record.
Originally Posted by giugix
Anyhow, softeners and cooling towers don't mix well. A lot of people use softeners but they are shortening the life of their equipment by a lot. In order to soften water, you exchange the calcium ion , in the form of calcium bicarbonate with the sodium ion, into sodium bicarbonate. Now, google what sodium bicarbonate is... that's right, baking soda. Now, take some good old arm and hammer and pour a little out onto a piece of steel and add a little water, now let it sit for a couple days. When you come back... rust and corrosion and nasties.
Soft water is extremely corrosive. The softener companies argue against that fact... but they don't know what they are talking about. I sell softeners too, but I would never recommend putting one on a tower. Calcium is an excellent corrosion inhibitor and will prevent corrosion... as long as you keep it in solution and not on the tubes! Do not mistake this with the old engineers tale that a little scale is good because it protects the tubes. That just bull ****. There is no such thing as good scale!!!
The other problem with softeners... they exhaust or channel at high demand times. When you cycle a tower up with soft water the pH is very high, (above 9) then it fails or channels, you will scale right away because calcium is no bueno at that pH even with chemical. But soft water pH is higher than hard water because of the baking soda.
Oh yeah, back to corrosion. Copper does not like pH levels below 6 and above 9. So when you are above 9 then you may be corroding condenser tubes or heat exchangers.
There is a technology know as 'zero blow down' that uses soft water to cycle up to 50 or 60 cycles in a tower without having to blow down. I was taken with this for a time as well... then I learned that high TDS water, (higher than 5,000 umhos) does NOT have the same heat retention capabilities as low TDS water, (lower than 5,000 umhos). So you will not get the same efficiency and it will acutally cost you more in electricity since the chillers have to work harder to remove the same amount of heat. There are several other problems with this including corrosion and biological growth but you get the idea. Another problem is the high concentrations of chlorides at those cycles which corrode the **** out of everything including stainless.
Bottom line... don't use soft water in towers!!!
When you say low cycles of 4 - 5, keep in mind that the higher the TDS the heavier the water is, (lbs per gallon) which becomes increasing expensive to pump. Pure water is 8.34 lbs per gallon, water heavily saturated with dissolved solids may get much heavier making it much more expensive to pump as well as less capable of absorbing the heat from the condenser tubes.
Anyhow, I hope this makes sense. Let me know if I wasn't clear on anything.
We recently trialed a UV light system called UVOX at our facility that did not work out well. Promised to be chemical free but after less than two months we had to pull the plug due to corrosion. Cycling up three times we saw terrible results so we went back to chemical treatment.