HELP, Dash or Plainspoken, anyone.

[titan7]

I think my installer is lost on this one, See the thread below on Dumb Carrier 58cvx question and/or my posts from the summer when my Infinity system was installed. I think at this point I am going to have to pay to get a 2nd opinion from somebody who REALLY understands ductwork. Can anybody give me a referral in the Southern CA area (Orange County). This has just gone out of control. I don't know what else I could have done as a HO to avoid this, but at this point I am not going to have someone continue to guess.

thanks!

[jrbenny]

With the duct issues you describe, I'd recommend a company that is trained and certified by the National Comfort Institute.

http://www.nationalcomfortinstitute....bers/index.cfm

The people at NCI won't be able to fix your problem, but they can identify companies in your area that have received their training.

[tinner73]

how about posting some pics of everything.

[plain spoken]

I agree with JrBenny.

I would first call the Owner of the company you contracted with. Explain your concerns and what has happened so far. If he does not "immediately" agree to get involved, politely explain you are going to call in another company to correct the problems and you are going to expect him to pay for the changes (follow this up with a certified letter stating this). Do not do this as a threat, but explain it is your last resort. Also send copies to the Carrier Distributor. While this is apparently not an equipment problem, they can encourage the dealer to remedy this situation.

If they designed and installed the duct system it is 100% on them to make it right and at NO additional cost to you (as long as you did not refust to let them do something that they proposed).

[dash]

They should solve the problem at their expense,not yours,based on they designed and installed the duct system.That said,if they were going to,it would likely have been done already.

NOT saying they are "bad" people,the majority of contractors are not well versed in duct design,and as much as I hate "rules of thumb"they seem to "get by" the majority of the time.

From what I've seen around here,and on this site,they probably don't have the knowledge to redesign it ,and/or do it in the most cost effective way.

Can you post pictures ,and/or describe the return duct system,filter, and grille(s)?Pictures help a lot.

Better description of what they say needs to done would help also.

Did they tell you what the supply and return statics are?

May not be able to solve "over the net",but some have been solved that way on this site,after the installer said "walls and ceilings need to be ripped out to correct it".

[Edited by dash on 01-13-2005 at 11:25 AM]

[titan7]

Dash, I will take some photos tomorrow post them with details on what I was told. thanks

[tinner73]

take some meausurements of the ductwork too. trunklines,return drop, etc.

[titan7]

Well here are the photos.

http://groups.msn.com/M51/shoebox.msnw?Page=1

In short the the main supply is a 14" run on the top of the plentum that goes from the ceiling in the garage to the attic, to a mixing box. Flex is run from the mixing box to each of the 4 upstairs room and 2 baths. two long runs go over the ceiling of the stair well to the living, dinning room. The 90 degree duct coming off the plentum is not flex, it's a 9" that you can see in the inside photo with the wine frig.

I took the plug out of that duct and dropped ESP on the low heat from .35 to .27 @ 825 CFM, high heat when from .56 to .47 @ 1069. I have not had a 33 Circuit limit fault since I took this out yesterday. I am wondering if that was not allowing enough return air?


I thought my 37 x 14 return was ok for the system, then I pulled the return grill off. No wonder the static pressure has been high!! there is a 1x6 board across the small open area I have! I first drilled 9 1" holes in the board it reduced SP from 0.37 to 0.31, @870 CFM I am going to cut that thing out this afternoon. I can't believe the house was build this way. It appears this is a board used when the house was being framed and they just never tool it out!

This is the most recent problem, Big problem:
http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/showthread.php?threadid=67387

These are my other threads on this same issue

http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/showthread.php?threadid=54530

http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/showthread.php?threadid=55541

http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/showthread.php?threadid=55859

http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/showthread.php?threadid=66134

http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/showthread.php?threadid=67387

[tinner73]

yup.... probably the return. in a perfect world that would have been a framed out opening. i'm sure your flex "spider" in your attic isn't helping either. in that pic w/the wine rack, i'm not sure what was done there. that doesn't look right, you can remove the grille and paint that mess black and put the grille back. i'd replace that gas line flex and put a drip-leg in it. just some ideas. now.... why is you b-vent all crooked.

[dash]

1.Are the 14" and 9" the only runs off the plenum,as it appears?

2. Does the 9" go to just one grille?If so,was it "plugged",for noise or excess air flow?


3.Is the home two stories?(Referencing the 14" to the attic,feeding 4 upstairs rooms and 2 baths)

4. If two stories,what feeds the down stairs??

5. What rooms are adjacent to the room the furnace is in?


Cut out all unneeded wood in the return,run with the return grille removed to lower ESP.



Have you posted these pictures before,or am I dreaming?



A 14" & 9" trunk,are not large enough for 4 tons,if that's all there is.




[Edited by dash on 01-16-2005 at 11:45 AM]

[tinner73]

that return opening looks familiar.

[titan7]

Yes you guys saw these photos in the summer when I first started having the "change filter error" on the Infinity controller. I cut out the horizonal firebreaks and the 1x6" piece with the holes in it. That help drop ESP.


Dash
1.Are the 14" and 9" the only runs off the plenum,as it appears?

Yes the 14" and the 9" are the the only two supply ducts off the plentum on top of the coil. The 14" terminates at a mixing box in the attic, the 14" run is about 12 feet long. Once in the attic it goes to 14" flex and for about 10 feet and the R6 6" flex go to the bedrooms.


2. Does the 9" go to just one grille?If so,was it "plugged",for noise or excess air flow?

Yes the 9" goes to one grill, look that the photo of the furnace in the garage, the duct coming off the left side is that 9", it you look at the photo of the inside of my house that grill above the wine frig is that same duct. I because it pushes so much air they and the air flow to the upstairs rooms is not great, they said to put this plug in. It helped alot with air flow to the upstairs but pushed ESP up about .10. It


3.Is the home two stories?(Referencing the 14" to the attic,feeding 4 upstairs rooms and 2 baths)

Yes 2 stories.

4. If two stories,what feeds the down stairs??

Just that 9" in the family room, Up in the attic they run three 6" flex lines to the other side of house in the attic and down the stairwell to the livingroom, dinning room, and kitchen. Bad design but this was what the original ductwork did.

5. What rooms are adjacent to the room the furnace is in?

The wall behind the furnace is the family room, to the left of the furnace is a bathroom downstairs, to the right of the furnace is an exterior wall.

The runs on the flex are 6" to the bedrooms, I did not see a mixing box from the 14"? Not sure how they attached them but here are the duct photos from the attic:

http://groups.msn.com/M51/shoebox.msnw?Page=Last

Thanks!!!



[Edited by titan7 on 01-16-2005 at 02:22 PM]

[tinner73]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by titan7

4. If two stories,what feeds the down stairs??
Just that 9" in the family room, Up in the attic they run three 6" flex lines to the other side of house in the attic and down the stairwell to the livingroom, dinning room, and kitchen. Bad design but this was what the original ductwork did.


i think this is your problem. if i understand right, the 6" ducts run across the attic AND then down the stairwell. i'm sorry to say but you have a horrible duct system in your house. it is by far the cheapest to install and the worst for airflow. if all your ducts were smooth insulated metal you would have better airflow.

[AllTemp]

I have been reading this thread until I am exhausted.

Titan my hats is off to you sir, you must be the most patient and kind person a service company could run into.

My opinion is the installing company hasn't had an training on this system or slep thru class if they did.

All the rhetoric of changing out parts and waiting for parts is just ridiculous! 1st this is classified as a parts changer, their not trouble shooting the problem for lack of knowledge, just guessing our unquailified you pick.

I read you've been dealing with the distributor US-Air, I assume Anaheim, or perhaps City of Industry. Do these guys know about the parts changing?

Excuses on parts not in are unacceptable, but not that it really mattered anyway when they go the new parts. When I place an order with my salesman at Us-Air I know location of the parts I am geting and when they will be here...

I would definately get the second opinion with a Carrier dealer that is familar with the Infinity System only. Check their creditials with US-Air Carrier sales rep, good luck

It is most regrettable that you have experienced any problem with such a beautiful system. But whats more regrettabe is that you learned in the11th hour your isntalling contractor doesn't have the experience and training to be servicing your equipment.

[titan7]

Tinner73,

Thanks for looking at the photos. I know this is not perfect but this was same layout as the original AB ductwork. I agree with you but with the design of the home there really is not another option. There is no other way to get ducts to the Kitchen, Dinning room and living room from the garage without going to the attic unless I was to run exposed duct work on the inside of finished walls in the living space. Do you think that increasing the size of the flex to 8" would help, or is the flexduct going to continue to cause this issue? If I have them replace the flex and put metal ductwork in am I still going to have a return issue?

ESP is currently running at .27 @ 825CFM in low heat and .46-.47 ESP @ 1025 CFM in high heat.

ESP is running at .77-.78 @ 1468 CFM in high cool.

Esp is running at .29 @ 882 CFM in low cool.

These don't seem too high over the spec by Carrier of .50 ESP.

Since I removed the circular dampner form the 9" duct I have not had a "33 limit circuit fault" with the heat on.
Since this reduced ESP maybe it's fixed?

thanks!

[dash]

Originally posted by titan7
Tinner73,

Thanks for looking at the photos. I know this is not perfect but this was same layout as the original AB ductwork. I agree with you but with the design of the home there really is not another option. There is no other way to get ducts to the Kitchen, Dinning room and living room from the garage without going to the attic unless I was to run exposed duct work on the inside of finished walls in the living space. Do you think that increasing the size of the flex to 8" would help, or is the flexduct going to continue to cause this issue? If I have them replace the flex and put metal ductwork in am I still going to have a return issue?

ESP is currently running at .27 @ 825CFM in low heat and .46-.47 ESP @ 1025 CFM in high heat.

ESP is running at .77-.78 @ 1468 CFM in high cool.

Esp is running at .29 @ 882 CFM in low cool.

These don't seem too high over the spec by Carrier of .50 ESP.

Since I removed the circular dampner form the 9" duct I have not had a "33 limit circuit fault" with the heat on.
Since this reduced ESP maybe it's fixed?

thanks!

With the damper removed from the 9" ,you will likely have low air flow to the second floor in cooling.Warm air rises,so now the extra air to the first floor ,rises to the second floor.Cool air falls,so the second floor will likely be lacking air flow again.


The reason I asked about adjoining rooms was,if a room adjoins the furnace area ,a thru the wall supply could be added(similar to the 9"),seems like that won't work.If you droped the ceiling in the adjoining bath,would that allow a sidewall supply to a larger room??If it would this would reduce the air that now travels thru the 14" duct ,and thus the Static.


The 14" likely needs to be an 18" flex duct ,to reduce the static,maybe reduced to a 16" after the first few takeoffs.A Man.J needs to be done to determine the correct size runs for all the rooms.A square to round ,metal fitting from the coil to the now 14" duct,would help also.


If they can't increase the 14" thru the ceiling,due to framing,increase it as soon as framing allows,using a metal "increaser" 14" to 18" round.





Check to be sure the "hole " in the stand is cut to the size of the filter,not smaller.

You ducts are undersized,changing them to metal would not likely solve the problem.

[titan7]

Thanks Dash, those are great suggestions.

I will not be able to drop the ceiling in the Bath as it's only about about 7' high now. it's only 5 wide by 9feet long, toilet and sink, with a exshast fan in the middle of the ceiling.

On the 14" the soonest an 18" could be fitted is in the attic just as it comes out of the framing.

With regard to the hole on the platform, the hole is the same size as the intake of the furnace. We were going to use the smaller filter rack at first so they told me to cut out the hole to the Furnace specs. During the install the smaller honeywell rack did not fit right so they went with the larger 20x25" rack. I the entire furnace,coil etc would need to be disconnected and removed for that option. If we are doing that I would also have the entire platform redesigned.

What about running another supply to the opposite side of the wall where the 9" is going in. I was thinking could be run externally in on the ceiling of the garage and to the right of the furnace and going through the wall above the washer and dryer? On the inside wall it would look like the duct above my wine frig only 10 feet to the left? If if was return it would have to enter the platform from the side(cut through the drywall) I am not sure that would be to code.

[dash]

Originally posted by titan7
Thanks Dash, those are great suggestions.

I will not be able to drop the ceiling in the Bath as it's only about about 7' high now. it's only 5 wide by 9feet long, toilet and sink, with a exshast fan in the middle of the ceiling.

On the 14" the soonest an 18" could be fitted is in the attic just as it comes out of the framing.

With regard to the hole on the platform, the hole is the same size as the intake of the furnace. We were going to use the smaller filter rack at first so they told me to cut out the hole to the Furnace specs. During the install the smaller honeywell rack did not fit right so they went with the larger 20x25" rack.



?????
I the entire furnace,coil etc would need to be disconnected and removed for that option.?????


If we are doing that I would also have the entire platform redesigned.

What about running another supply to the opposite side of the wall where the 9" is going in. I was thinking could be run externally in on the ceiling of the garage and to the right of the furnace and going through the wall above the washer and dryer? On the inside wall it would look like the duct above my wine frig only 10 feet to the left? If if was return it would have to enter the platform from the side(cut through the drywall) I am not sure that would be to code.

The extra run would help,only if it feeds a different room,than the existing 9" .


If the bath ceiling is 7',has it ben dropped already,could there be a dead space above it,for a duct run??

[thehumid1]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by tinner73

Originally posted by titan7

4. If two stories,what feeds the down stairs??
Just that 9" in the family room, Up in the attic they run three 6" flex lines to the other side of house in the attic and down the stairwell to the livingroom, dinning room, and kitchen. Bad design but this was what the original ductwork did.


i think this is your problem. if i understand right, the 6" ducts run across the attic AND then down the stairwell. i'm sorry to say but you have a horrible duct system in your house. it is by far the cheapest to install and the worst for airflow. if all your ducts were smooth insulated metal you would have better airflow.

Well better airflow minus the up to the 40% leakage you can have with those smooth insulated tin ducts....

But I will not argue the duct design and sizing seem inadequate.

[titan7]

There may be room for a small 5-6" duct, which would terminat toward the living room. in the hallway, that duct would be 12 feet away form the 9". Would adding another return to the same room as the 9" be a solution or code violation.




AllTemp,
Yes it was US-Air in the City of Industry and yes they knew about the issues.

By the way,

Are these ESP readings ok:

ESP is currently running at .27 @ 825CFM in low heat and .46-.47 ESP @ 1025 CFM in high heat.

ESP is running at .77-.78 @ 1468 CFM in high cool.

Esp is running at .29 @ 882 CFM in low cool.

These don't seem too high over the spec by Carrier of .50 ESP.

Since I removed the circular dampner form the 9" duct I have not had a "33 limit circuit fault" with the heat on.
Since this reduced ESP maybe it's fixed?


[Edited by titan7 on 01-17-2005 at 11:47 AM]