Trane XR 11 Defrost board

[jacob perkins]

Originally posted by heatpumpowner
He is coming out 1/17/05 to replace said reversing valve.

OUCH!

Five man-hours,maybe more.

[plain spoken]

If he does not believe it is sticking then why is he replacing it?

[tonyo]

Unit could be in defrost. Defrost cycle is same as cooling. The vapor line would be cold during defrost, and could even frost. My question would be how long does this last. How often does it do this. Air is going to be colder during defrost. What's back up heat? (electric, gas) is it energizing during defrost?

[derrick1623]

Originally posted by plain spoken
If he does not believe it is sticking then why is he replacing it?

they said he does believe it is sticking, coming out of defrost.

[heatpumpowner]

Well the guy came out and replaced the reversing valve. It was a 5 hour job. The worst part was how cold it was. The temperature outside was around 20.

He said he has to come out again to make sure the charge is correct. We scheduled this appointment for January 26.

I will let everyone know if this does not fix the problem.

[seabreeze]

Did he say anything about the noisy start and stop. My XR11 (less than a year old) still makes a sound when starting up like the fan is out of alignment or a bearing is going bad. Once it gets going its ok but shutdown is not quiet either. Not sure whether to call in installer or live with it.

[travisfl]

Originally posted by seabreeze
Did he say anything about the noisy start and stop. My XR11 (less than a year old) still makes a sound when starting up like the fan is out of alignment or a bearing is going bad. Once it gets going its ok but shutdown is not quiet either. Not sure whether to call in installer or live with it.

I've seen quite a few XR11 / XR12 recently with bent fan shrouds (that top piece that the condenser fan motor mounts to). When the fan starts (or stops) the edge of the shroud vibrates down on the top frame to which it is mounted and causes a 'bang'. Also check the plastic trim piece in the center of the shroud to make sure it is not rattling.

If the fan shroud is the problem and replacing it isn't an option you can just remove it temporarily (4 screws) and put a narrow (1/2") piece of thin weatherstrip tape all the way around the top frame. Then remount the shroud. Probably not a factory approved work around but it seems to do the job.

[seabreeze]

Thank you TravisFL for your help. I think you hit the nail on the head. I noticed that when pressure is applied to the shroud the unit quiets down considerably. The plastic top centerpiece does seem a little loose but not sure if it is contributing to the problem.

[heatpumpowner]

SeaBreeze,

I feel your pain regarding the Trane XR 11. I did not yet have any problems with how loud the system was when starting up. The few times I was able to run the system in normal heat mode the system sounded fine. However in the last 40 days we had the system on emergency heat around 30 of those days.

To update everyone:

My installer came back on Jan 26 to check the charge. When he arrived he noticed the new reversing valve had failed. He then spent another 3 hours replacing the reversing valve for the second time. I was then told that when they turned the system on to check it, the new reversing valve failed again. I am once again on emergency heat.

My installer has now decided to replace the entire outdoor unit. I am not sure what the policy is regarding putting names of installers on this board but if anyone lives in the Washington DC metro area and are getting a new heat pump put in please shoot me an email to talk and see if you are unlucky enough to be in talks with my current installer.

My email is dlittle411@yahoo.com. I would not want anyone else to go through what I am with this particular installer.

I will keep everyone posted on when the new heat pump is installed, and how it does.

[travisfl]

Originally posted by heatpumpowner
....My installer came back on Jan 26 to check the charge. When he arrived he noticed the new reversing valve had failed. He then spent another 3 hours replacing the reversing valve for the second time. I was then told that when they turned the system on to check it, the new reversing valve failed again. I am once again on emergency heat.

My installer has now decided to replace the entire outdoor unit.....[/B]

Assuming he is correct about his diagnosis, then it is likely there is crap in the lineset causing the reversing valve to fail.

Was this a new installation or a replacement? If the latter, what was the failure mode of the old system? Burned out compressor, maybe? Did the installer replace the lineset?

You can bet that it is not the equipment that is failing, it is the installation!

[twosticks]

Three bad reversing valves is kinda hard to believe
unless he's overheating the new ones when putting
them in.

[aircooled53]

Tell your installer to open the new air handler and check the (TXV bulb) to insure it is clamped to the suction line. When he recovered the freon from the first reversing valve install did he replace the liquid line drier?
Tell him to check the solinoid on the valve, I have never had to replace a reversing valve more than once in 20+ years.He is not finding the problem and you are paying for it in electric usage...Call the office and ask if this has happen on other installations, if no answer call Trane and request they send out factory rep. I am not trying to bad mouth the technician, but after the first valve there is something that he is not catching on this problem.

[HVAC Pro]

I'm sorry did you say Trane? Guess it's hard to start one too! Oh, I'm just kidding calm down...

[heatpumpowner]

This was a replacement. The Trane that was there before was around 20 years old and the compressor was burned out. I do not know what a lineset is, if this contains the freon, then no it was not replaced.

The installation manager believes there is something causing the restriction in the coil. That is why they decided to replace the entire outside unit. I also found it hard to believe why they spent all of my time and there time wasting changing the reversing valve twice.

I did request that a new installer come out rather than have the same guy put in the new one. So far from this site I have learned that proper installatin procedures are as important as a quality system.

Maybe I was the unlucky one and did get a bogus unit from Trane. Shit happens, no big deal. The installer has decided to do the right thing (after wasting 5 days of my anual leave) and replace the entire outside unit. I applaud them for that. However, the lack of customer service from Trane is truly amazing! I have yet to receive any confirmation from Trane as to the problems associated with my unit. They simply produce units and leave the dealer to fix whatever problems may arise. This is an extremely poor business model. If I would have know this was the case I would have never bought a Trane from the get go.

I can also tell you I will never buy one again!

Just so everyone knows I have tried to have Home Depot set up a different company to do the new install, and they have said there is no chance of this happening. Thanks a bunch Home Depot.

One final note of disrespect from the Installer, the instalation manager decides smoking cigarettes (I have no problem with that) is ok and putting the butts in my lawn for my puppy (lab which he has met several times) to eat is ok. Once again anyone requiring installatin in DC area please contact me at dlittle411@yahoo.com. I will give an unbiased opinion of the service received.

Installer is coming 2/1/05 to replace the outside unit. I will keep you posted...

[Edited by heatpumpowner on 01-31-2005 at 09:20 AM]

[travisfl]

Originally posted by heatpumpowner
This was a replacement. The Trane that was there before was around 20 years old and the compressor was burned out. I do not know what a lineset is, if this contains the freon, then no it was not replaced. The installation manager believes there is something causing the restriction in the coil.

Sounds like a classic case of crap left in the lineset because of the old compressor burnout. Wouldn't be surprised if there is now crap in the evaporator coil, too. If it were my system I'd replace the lineset, the outdoor unit, and the indoor coil and TXV as well. Otherwise you may be chasing problems for years to come.

You really need to get Trane's attention on this one and demand that the system be fixed correctly. Have you called the DC area office and asked for a factory rep's assistance?

Washington, D.C. Sales Office
12320 Parklawn Drive
Rockville, Maryland 20001
301.984.2400


[Edited by travisfl on 01-31-2005 at 09:53 AM]

[seabreeze]

I have had the same lousy experience with Trane customer service. As I indicated in other posts, they always flip you back to installer, like they are afraid that anything they say or do will somehow come back to haunt them. I cannot understand this attitude from a supposedly reputable company. If the manufacturer doesn't know how the equipment is supposed to run how do they expect anyone else to know. As far as the XR-11 goes I am beginning to think that we got the rotten apples in the Trane lineup of heat pumps, and a 10year parts and labor warranty is only as good as the outfit doing the servicing.

[HVAC Pro]

heatpumpowner, I can empathize with you. As we all know, any brand hvac equipment, automobile, or any other mechanical contraption can have defects. It's how you handle that situation that is important. I think manufacturers as well as installing contractors should learn to show a little humility in this regard. One of the most important aspects of my business is customer satisfaction and I think it is for every contractor. I recommend that you voice everything to your installing contractor that you have here. Including the cigarette butts. If they don't know, they can't make changes.

[heatpumpowner]

Travisfl,

Sounds like a classic case of crap left in the lineset because of the old compressor burnout.
__________________________________________________ _________

The outdoor unit was replaced February 1, 2005. Let me know if I understand what you are saying regarding the "crap in the lineset." Does this mean the actual freon could be causing the problem? I did ask the installer before they installed the first one if they would be replacing the copper pipe (and new freon of course) that holds the freon and transfers it back and forth from Heat Pump to Air Handler. They insisted this was not necessary. I will be contacting the DC sales office to inquire about what went wrong with the system. They took it with them to determine what the problem was.

One final thought: when the installers were tearing out the old outside unit he noticed the freon was leaking ever so slightly. Could this have contaminated the rest of the freon causing the problems? (Just grasping at straws i guess)

[travisfl]

Originally posted by heatpumpowner
Does this mean the actual freon could be causing the problem? I did ask the installer before they installed the first one if they would be replacing the copper pipe (and new freon of course) that holds the freon and transfers it back and forth from Heat Pump to Air Handler. They insisted this was not necessary.

When your old compressor burned out it contaminated the entire system with acid and the charred remains of the motor windings. Unless the lineset was carefully flushed and perfectly evacuated before installation (difficult, but not imposssible to do) some of that material and acid will find its way into your new evaporator, expansion valve, and condenser components. In these circumstances one classic failure mode is a sticking reversing valve. There are steps you can take to mitigate the risk such as installing a temporary "burn out" dryer in the liquid line, but the best thing to do is to install a new lineset any time it is physically practical.

Was this an R-22 system that was replaced with another R-22 system, or is the new system R-410a?

Originally posted by heatpumpowner
One final thought: when the installers were tearing out the old outside unit he noticed the freon was leaking ever so slightly. Could this have contaminated the rest of the freon causing the problems?

Leaking refrigerant shouldn't cause a problem in and of itself. On a clean system it would be a sign that the system was still under pressure, which would be a good thing.

[heatpumpowner]

All,

So far the new unit is working fine. We have had it for 22 days now and nothing to talk about. What a relief. Thank you all for your thoughts on the system.

One final question, I hear people talk about charging the freon. What does this mean? Should I do this every year?