Page 4 of 14 FirstFirst 1234567891011 ... LastLast
Results 40 to 52 of 175
  1. #40
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    Waco, Texas, USA
    Posts
    6,153
    Bob,

    The door switch is NOT for electrical safety. It is to shut the system down if the blower door falls off so Carbon Monoxide doesn't enter the air stream. Electrical safety is achieved by a positive means of disconnect at or adjacent to the furnace. The person or company that installed the furance with no means of disconnect has violated code.

    Even if the door was removed and the switch was working properly it will still be live on one side of the switch. Just as if you took your panel off your breaker box and killed the main breaker, the main wires feeding the box are still hot.

    Proper electrical grounding won't matter. If the HO got on a live wire and he was well grounded then yeah the jolt could have stopped his heart. We need to know if this was an upflow unit or if he was laying across it in an attic trying reach the backside to change the filter. Can you post the serial number too?

    That paticular unit did not have chronic problems with the door switch however there were other issues with the heat exchanger and blower housing positioning in the GMP-075-3. I would bet that the door switch wasn't the problem in the first place. The symptoms you are giving us really don't add up.

    P.S. I hope you are able to find out who sold the unit and if they had knowledge of an illegal act, such as not pulling a permit etc... We must get this stopped before more are killed. I will damn sure testify to that fact!


    [Edited by Steve Wiggins on 01-05-2005 at 04:23 PM]
    "And remember my sentimental friend......that a heart is not judged by how much you love, but by how much you are loved by others" - Wizard of Oz.

  2. #41
    Originally posted by bob daley
    The deceased did not know about the bypassed switch
    Bob, if you can get that one passed the jury and the defending attorney as you did the experts here, you might make it.


  3. #42
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    Sandusky Ohio
    Posts
    298
    Steve, not to start a war or flame, but what facts do you have that the door switch is for those purposes you mention and not for electrical safety? I think the door switch is for electrical and mechanical safety, and you say it isn't. Two opposing opinions without something that is directly stated by UL or AGA or by Standards and codes. Without an absolute its just a matter of he said/ he said.

    To the lawyer, let me say this, I don't sell Goodman because I think their junk and wouldn't sell one to Tammy Faye Baker to use in her dogs house!! I have seen door switch's on furnaces of many brands jump out in my hand when I take the door off!
    Have you looked at those pieces of plastic junk? Who on this site can say that those are a safe design, Also, why, IF they are for electrical safety don't they enclose the back side to protect us from the wiring? The manufacturer SHOULD design the equipment to not hurt us or a child if the door does get opened, either by choice or accident! They KNOW that if a service man forgets to turn the power on OR if someone else turns the power on while their working on the systemt hat those cheap wire covers over the slip ons are a joke!

    As to the grounding of the unit, this has nothing to do with this death. If he hit a power supply in the furnace and died because of ti then its because the tech became the ground. The poster of this is confussing this with GFI protection and other things...

    I beleive many on this site are taking this death way too lightly. I'm happy that this lawyer is looking into it. Lets face the truth here people, how many times have we all said 'Those DAMN ENGINEERS! THEY SHOULD HAVE TO WORK ON THIS CRAP!"

    Let this guy do the investigation and if there is something there let him follow through with it, if not, it will vaporize. Don't try to teach him law, he's asking about technical stuff, I'm sure he knows about who has responsibilty.

    Now my two cents worth of information about some facts to look into.

    You talked about a service or on off swith. FIRST, was it in SIGHT of the furnace as specified by code or in another room?

    Secondly, was the unit wired WRONG? Lets say the fused switch or regular switchwas wired to break the neutral wire and not the power supply, this is a very real possiblity!!! I have seen this on DIY and inspected installations from contractors! Don't you all remember the one picture of the condensate line that almost killed one of the posters here with a sever shock because of mis wiring!!!

    Thirdly, Was the furnace installed according to code and the manufacturer. In other words, was it installed so the man could not change the filter without putting his hand accross the electrical switch? I have seen jobs that had filters two feet in the duct and you had to put your whole arm in the system to get to it! Just look at some of the picutres on the Wall of Shame if any here have a short memory of how bad installations can be installed!

    Forthly, If its possible to post pictures of the installation on the wall of Shame we may be able to pick out problems that others are trying to cover up and code violations.

    Fifthly, (if there is such a word) I saw something that Goodman or Janitrol was a product that was not legal to install somewhere in a Kentucky county or township. I'm pretty sure that it was one or the other. You should research this, I will see if I can remember which wholesaler had the article and if it was real.


    Lastly, And those who are putting all the blame on the service person and attacking this lawyer should rethink thier thoughts for a moment. We in the trade need to make sure that everyone who is injured or killed has an investigation as to why. This is what is right for the tech and thier family and to us in the field. My goodness people, the entire nation cries and there are headlines for days when a fireman gets killed but when its an HVAC guy we immediatly throw stones at the tech without facts? Who can say that this death wasn't a result of a defect or improper installation. And if this was a result of a switch or wires leading to it I WANT IT CHANGED so YOU and everyone else has a chance to go home to their families instead of a wooden box! This lawyer is NECESSARY to make sure that their isn't any cover ups in the companies and the government. Yep, its true people, the government doesn't really do that great of a job sometimes.

    I'll be quiet now, if I'm kicked off the board so be it. I will stand up for a fellow tradesman if its his fault or not, he deserves a total investigation and the 'newbies' in the field need protection as well. If its 100% his fault I will say a prayer for the family, if its a corporate fault, I say FIX the problem and compensate the injured for murdering their family member and if you don't fix it and another gets killed then its coming down to an 'eye for an eye' then.

    Rich

    [Edited by Rich on 01-05-2005 at 05:12 PM]

  4. #43
    All Mfgs are to blame for making cheesy filter racks that are inside the blower compartment where there is live voltage, and then expecting the HO can at least change his own filter. We as contractors could be held to blame too for showing HO how to change the filter.
    In my opinion **** happens, there is not always someone at fault when tragedy strikes.
    The guy who bypassed that switch is the one who is most lible for anything that occurred as a result.
    Hey cockroach, don't bug me!

    www.AskTheDiceman.com

    www.TheColdConspiracy.com

    www.Pennwood-HVAC.Com

    Bring Em Home....

  5. #44
    And I been shocked more times than I can even remember and I am still here..............
    Hey cockroach, don't bug me!

    www.AskTheDiceman.com

    www.TheColdConspiracy.com

    www.Pennwood-HVAC.Com

    Bring Em Home....

  6. #45
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    newton,mass.
    Posts
    6,109
    WOW; This sure is a wild one. First we don't know whats up with the kid HVAC guy or son or kid next door. Door switch bypassed and unmarked, the few times we've done that we have marked unit with that warning. I think it wasn't the switch that got him, how was it bypassed? Maybe just the stacons pushed together hanging in the air. The service switch should have been turned off no matter what. If a service company told them to do this they most likely would have told them to secure the wires and mark the unit. I had a customer that kept bypassing safety switchs. I had to threaten them to get them to stop, i bet if they hurt themselfs i would be the one getting sued. We really need more facts, maybe have a few guys look more deeply into this and report back to the rest of us.
    "Nothing else can poison our culture, corrupt our society or ruin the character of our people like unearned money or unearned opportunity." -- James R. Cook

    "Fooling around with alternating current is just a waste of time. Nobody will use it, ever." Thomas Edison, 1889.

  7. #46
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    South Carolina
    Posts
    1,333
    This is why NOT to give ho's any help!
    If you kill someone else and say that you were told to, that dont make it ok. So saying that the ho was told to bypass the door switch dont make it someone else problem. As you are a lawyer your trying to blame it on someone else to meke money not for the family but for you. Do you have a conscience.Puting the blame on someone else is plane wrong.

    duc dowg

  8. #47
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    midwest
    Posts
    2,868
    There is no way that Goodman can be at fault for this death. The only people that could be at fault are the electrician for not having it grounded if there was a hot wire to the furnace case, which is unlikely or the person that wired around the door switch. It is very unlikely that touching a hot wire will kill you unless you open your hand and grab it. Could it be that he was working on the furnace and not changing the filter? I feel like the complete truth is not being brought out yet. It should be easy to tell on this furnace what wire killed him. Would you care to clear this up with us so we don't keep guessing?

    [Edited by trane on 01-05-2005 at 05:46 PM]

  9. #48
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    Waco, Texas, USA
    Posts
    6,153
    Originally posted by Rich
    Steve, not to start a war or flame, but what facts do you have that the door switch is for those purposes you mention and not for electrical safety?

    If it were for safety, electric heat air handlers would have door switches too.

    Good post by the way, I agree
    "And remember my sentimental friend......that a heart is not judged by how much you love, but by how much you are loved by others" - Wizard of Oz.

  10. #49
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Grayslake, IL.
    Posts
    62
    I always thought the door switch was there to prevent co from entering the airstream, if it was there to cut power than you should have one on the upper door as well. Electric furnaces and air handlers don't have them and would need them if they were for safety purposes. I think they are great for res-setting the board before you can see the diagnostic light.

  11. #50
    First, sorry to hear about his loss of life for just trying to change a furnace filter.

    Second, this is another reason to install filter racks, media filters that allow HO to change the filters easily.

    Third, the unit being grounded or not has no effect to whether the unit will or will not electrocute a person.
    (all that is needed is a hot leg and a path to ground)

    Forth, (question here) You say the HO bypassed the door switch but then in a later post say that the deceased didn't know about the bypassed switch???

    Fifth, as to the service tech here that don't believe in death by electrocution by means of 120v in a furnace...it can and does happen, quicker then you can imagine!

    Sixth, sometimes I have found where the neutral was the switched leg, which leaves the unit still hot! (so in that case, it wouldn't have mattered if he shut it off or not)

    Seventh, the blower switch is 'un-repairable', normally if they malfunction, you replace the switch with an approved model.

    Eighth, 'the switch has failed many times', this may or may not be the fault of the switch. Rather it could be failing due to poor connections, high amp draw, rewiring of unit, the list goes on.

    Ninth, I'm with bwal2, the filters should not have to be serviced through the blower compartment. They should either have a separate opening or make installers install an external filter rack.

    Tenth, was this furnace installed by a legitimate HVAC company or a HO?

    Air of Hon...hot leg and a metal part of the unit is all that is needed...really just a hot and path to ground as I stated above.

    bootlen...I agree (to a point) on the Lawyers going after stupid stuff, but we still need to make sure equipment is as safe as it possibly can be. We have all seen designs that are stupid when it comes to safety!

    beencool...even IF a unit is properly ground, you can still die from electrocution with-out the safety tripping!

    rich...I agree that there can be improvements done to the door switches, like using protective connectors on BOTH sides of the switch!



  12. #51
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Colorado flatland native
    Posts
    15,067

    Steve's right!

    IMGDMFHO.
    My doctor gave me six months to live, but when I couldn't pay the bill he gave me six months more.
    Walter Matthau

  13. #52
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    Waco, Texas, USA
    Posts
    6,153
    Originally posted by trane
    There is no way that Goodman can be at fault for this death.
    You better believe they can. If they knowingly sold equipment to someone that in turn used it on an illegal job then Goodman becomes a "party to the fact of an illegal act"
    "And remember my sentimental friend......that a heart is not judged by how much you love, but by how much you are loved by others" - Wizard of Oz.

Page 4 of 14 FirstFirst 1234567891011 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Comfortech Show Promo Image

Related Forums

Plumbing Talks | Contractor Magazine
Forums | Electrical Construction & Maintenance (EC&M) Magazine
Comfortech365 Virtual Event