i want to paint a very common scenerio for you all and see if anyone thinks the epa is taking a reasonable approach.
you get a call for a glassdoor reach in icecream case. now the store people were slow to catch it and your tied up on a call its gonna take you say 2 hours to get there so walking in the door its been down 4 hours. you do your diagnostics and determine you have a clogged txv screen. you go to the rack and pump your system down, run your compessors a lil hard pull your sys to 0psig. now for the sake of argument we will assume our valves all hold good we valve off our system and now to be in accordance with the epa we must reclaim our sys down to 10" hg then we may pull the screen to check it. then after we replace the screen and having exposed our systen to the atmosphere while its under a vacumed condition we will now need to pull another vacume to remove the contaminates we just let into our system. so your looking at 8 hours or possibly more of down time over a dirty screen. now if you read the epa`s guidlines when it comes to verify a leak has been repaired they use the term " sound professional judgement" now i ask you is it sound professional judgement to pull an uncotaminated system into a vacumme so you can open it and intentionally expose it to moisture and other noncondesibles. also it is reasonable to expect a customer to be without refrigeration and lose product or sales because it had to be pulled or lost in order to be in compliance with the epa? in my sound professional judgement it is better to pull it to 0 psig so theoretically there is pressure on both the atmosphere and the sys and niether gas is leaked out nor atmosphere is let in and the task can be completed in a timely fashion.
anyone care to share thier oppion
Whoever said the epa was resonable?
In a professional manner.... I want my ice cream
It's you, the rack, and the ice cream... There are no weak sisters allowed in this trade, git er done!
[QUOTE]Originally posted by gas-n-go
[B]i..........now to be in accordance with the epa we must reclaim our sys down to 10" hg then we may pull the screen to check it. then after we replace the screen and having exposed our systen to the atmosphere while its under a vacumed condition we will now need to pull another vacume to remove the contaminates we just let into our system....."[QUOTE]
If you are doing a "MINOR" repair, the EPA does not require you to pull 10" Hg - only to 0 PSIG, depending upon circumstances. So if you intend to pull 0 PSIG, clean out the screen, and close the system without evacuating further you can usually do that legally (see EPA link for exceptions to evacuation). But if you plan to further evacuate the piping after closing up the system, before re-starting, then you would be required to initially evacuate the system to at least 10" Hg. before opening it up. Reason being that if you evacuate to 0 PSIG, open up the system, do the repair, close it, and then evacuate to 500 microns, or whatever - then you are going to be pulling some refrigerant out of the system and venting it thru the vacuum pump.
I personally would pull to 10" Hg., break the vacuum with dry nitrogen, open the system and do the repair, then further purge with dry nitrogen, then evacuate to 500 microns.
The following is from the EPA site: http://www.epa.gov/ozone/title6/608/...tml#exceptions
"2. Exceptions to Evacuation Requirements
EPA has established limited exceptions to its evacuation requirements for 1) repairs to leaky equipment and 2) repairs that are not major and that are not followed by an evacuation of the equipment to the environment.
If, due to leaks, evacuation to the levels in Table 1 is not attainable, or would substantially contaminate the refrigerant being recovered, persons opening the appliance must:
isolate leaking from non-leaking components wherever possible;
evacuate non-leaking components to the levels in Table 1; and
evacuate leaking components to the lowest level that can be attained without substantially contaminating the refrigerant. This level cannot exceed 0 psig.
If evacuation of the equipment to the environment is not to be performed when repairs are complete, and if the repair is not major, then the appliance must:
be evacuated to at least 0 psig before it is opened if it is a high- or very high-pressure appliance; or
be pressurized to 0 psig before it is opened if it is a low-pressure appliance. Methods that require subsequent purging (e.g., nitrogen) cannot be used except with appliances containing R-113. "
I dont have the right word to describe how to deal with the epa.
But the phrase "Red-Tape-Terrorist" does come to mind....
James? James ... come here and help me out! What's the word I'm looking for?
There are few to none books on market refrigeration service. I am told.
Maybe I should ghost write one. hmmmm.....
You dont read books from the epa to do market work. You just get in there and do the work.
The epa is so full of themselves ... they are CONSTAPATED!!!
for some reason the phrase "unintentional venting" would come to mind in this circumstance.
I once heard somewhere you can pump a system down to about 5 pounds press and pull the screen out real fast and do the deal . Nobody knows , nobody cares .
I also heard that you could leave the handvalve off until you get the screen out and then give it a quick blast to " clear the chamber " .
I also heard that reach in doors hide alot of noises....
I heard things about alot'a stuff , but I don't dare repeat them .
[b]" I'm smot , I kin handil dings , not like evryboty sez ... cuz I'm smot see ... and I want some respect " ( see The Godfather II )
Are you telling me that you go through all that? Your friggin crazy.
I was just gonna say. Who in there right mind would pump out that circuit fully, then pull a vacuum. Shut the damn liquid off, let er pull down to where the epr is at pressure and pull the screen. And another thing. You don't need to replace the screen. Just shoot some break cleaner in it. Throw it back in. Ten minutes, your done.
If your checking superheats and DA temps, that screen could have been identified way before the ooze starts leaking out of the plastic tubs.
Theres days where I rebuild the epr right there on the fly. I block off what I can but. Jeez lo petes.
Git er friggin done.
I was shopping at a grocery store last night and a tech was there asking this frozen food guy to pull a case so he can check to see if the coil is iced up. Now. I normally just mind my own business. But I could not help myself. I went over and asked him had he smoked the honey combs yet. He had no clue what I was talking about. This is the premeir company in this area. I was just dumbfounded. But I am kool cat. So I go grab a stick and respirator out of the truck. I show him. He is amazed. Air flow was the same as every other glass doors on the line up. The alarm called out was high temp. I said jees lo petes feel the damn ice cream it's hard. I said, it's atleast -5 or better. I lazer it and she was putting out about -12. I helped the dude out. The damn DA sensor was off. I get my good digital out and we find that someone had put a offset in. Remove the offset and she was all good.
My point is. What makes a great market guy is simply a good base of knowledge with a ton of common sense. It don't take ten years of schooling. Or hand holding. A good common sense guy with above average willingness and a good base knowledge.
So many guys get caught up with it being rocket science. A rack, it's circuits, the way gas can flash, condense, vaporise, manipulation of electrical. It's pretty basic stuff. It's common sense more than anything else.
And my biggest downfall. I am impatient as hell. You need to have patience as well.
Damn, they let you smoke cases? We use velometers. I love splaying with smoke sticks, though. Last time I used them was to prove to a manager that the a/c was blowing the conditioned air out of the open air case. Cool the way the smoke shows you exactly what is going on.
Originally posted by Dowadudda
...had he smoked the honey combs yet...
Edit: BTW, I was informed of how something should be done once at a store by a stranger. I was pissed off, "Who the F does this guy think he is?" Turns out he is a svc mgr at a another company and a valuable contact.
[Edited by jerrycoolsaz on 12-31-2004 at 11:31 AM]
They is me. I love doing it in front of customers too. They just look at you like your poisening there food. I have been meaning to get that little mini velometer though. I wonder if the feildpeice attachement works for this. I'll just buy that. Smoke though is the only way. I seen brand new case show good on a coworkers velometer, then I whip out my smoke and see it recirculating on some single decks. I guess the fans were screwed up, can't remember.
Well this cat was just a kid more or less. About 25. And he looked frantic. I know how the company he works for operates and they throw these young guys out to the wolves. I thought about that and figured, I have had plenty of help myself before. Why the heck not. Plus I wanted a peek at the rack room in this place. So I got my rocks off too. It wasn't all for nothing.