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Thread: thanks HVAC

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    NJ
    Posts
    3
    Just wanted to thank the members of HVAC for helping me make an educated choice in selecting a HVAC contractor and heating system. The old Heil, oil warm air 105K Btu, had several problems. Poor draft, flue too long, flue condensation, and oversized for my 1100 sg ft house, which resulted in a cracked heat exchanger.
    Since I supplement heating with buring wood, I got tired of being penalized and overcharged and for not using enough oil. So it made sense to convert to gas. Going high effeciency would fix the draft problem, I could remove the old tank in the basement and hopefully reduced heating costs since I would now be charged a flat rate for fuel.

    Tell me what you think.


    The Old system:
    [img]
    http://ww2.imagewiz.net/images/hvac1...8_DSCN0873.JPG
    [/img]

    The new system:
    [img]
    http://ww2.imagewiz.net/images/hvac1...9_DSCN0877.JPG
    http://ww2.imagewiz.net/images/hvac1...0_DSCN0878.JPG
    http://ww2.imagewiz.net/images/hvac1...1_DSCN0879.JPG
    [/img]


  2. #2
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Rapid City, SD
    Posts
    7,414
    Looks like a nice install with a couple of small things that might not be perfect. Just curious though, anyone think the exhaust should be wraped with some insulaion?



    [Edited by amickracing on 12-24-2004 at 06:16 PM]

  3. #3
    The Old system:


    The new system:




    Fixed post.

    [Edited by jultzya on 12-24-2004 at 04:51 PM]

  4. #4

    Just remember, you asked! :)

    First, what size of unit is this? (doesn't look like you have much return) They did to a temperature rise, right?

    Second, the things I don't see...gas union? (is it inside the unit? If so, it's against the IMC)

    Third, the things I don't like...PVC pipes (flu & comb) not straight (they wedged/stressed the pipe to run up hill). There's no service port on the coil and no other way to service the drain pipe with out cutting it apart. (and as Baldy recommends...they should be separate) No drain trap. Why didn't they drill the proper size holes in the wall, instead of using a plate with a BUNCH of caulk? (and the inlet pipe is not straight on the outside) And at the furnace, I would have come straight up to a 45 then a short pipe to the 90. (would look better and used less fittings)

    Why is there a lock on the electrical disconnect?

    With the pipes in the corner, you might get some recirculation of the flu gases.

    I hope I didn't affend you, but this is my honest opinion.


  5. #5
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Flemington, NJ
    Posts
    156
    Sorry.....

    I think the whole job looks sloppy.

    DHC

  6. #6
    Originally posted by outside rep
    not to bad but there should be some sort of plate on the outside, also there is supposed to a minimum of THREE feet between exhaust and intake
    Have you read the IMC or an install manual for a 90+ furnace?

    Because there is no meantion of this 'minimum of three feet' you talk about in either of them!

    Please post or tell us where you come up with that '3 feet minimum rule'!

  7. #7
    Is the condensate just spilling onto your concrete floor? It sure looks like it in the 2nd to last picture.

  8. #8
    Originally posted by outside rep
    Check on the AO Smith Cyclone info sheet and they say a three foot distance to keep from frezing over and intaking flue gases
    Dude, this is a 90+ residential furnace, not a commercial water heater.

    For you to say there needs to be more clearance (due to the specs for a water heater) is just wrong!

    Remember, different equipment requires different specifications...that's why there are install instruction with *everything*.

    BTW, how do they get 3 feet out of their approved concentric kit.

    http://www.hotwater.com/frame.html?t...al/comhome.htm


    [Edited by jultzya on 01-14-2005 at 06:04 PM]

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    East Stroudsburg, PA
    Posts
    13,215
    Originally posted by outside rep
    and about there other venting kit I would never use one of those, the best is to put the exhaust far away as possible from the intake
    Not familiar with York requirements, but I know for a fact that Ruud and Bryant both say a minimum of 3", maximum of 24" separation between intake and exhaust.

    Nothing wrong with concentric vent kits, but I rarely use them

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    NJ
    Posts
    3

    Question response - info

    "First, what size of unit is this? (doesn't look like you have much return) They did to a temperature rise, right? "

    60K BTU input
    Apparently Joe's temperature rise method involves using his hand and 30 years of experience.

    #2 guy informally suggested I improve return flow. I interpreted that as meaning that maybe things were marginal. #1 did not come out and say that this was needed to maintain the warrantee. So I (homeowner) increased the return pipes from 5" to 6" and the floor grates from 2"x10" to 6"x10". Did my own temp rise test and it is around 40 Deg F. Spec for furnace is 40-70 Deg F.

    "Second, the things I don't see...gas union? (is it inside the unit? If so, it's against the IMC) "

    It is inside the cabinet. Certainly does not make sense, but the inspector would not reject it.

    "Third, the things I don't like...PVC pipes (flu & comb) not straight (they wedged/stressed the pipe to run up hill). "

    I agree, but again the inspector would not reject it. They could not run the pipes horizontal, but perhaps could have used some 11 Deg elbows. There is no stress on the furnace fittings, but some of the connections are not fully mated.

    "There's no service port on the coil"

    The coil and box was existing, not in the scope of the job. They patched it up a little.

    "and no other way to service the drain pipe with out cutting it apart. (and as Baldy recommends...they should be separate) No drain trap."

    Not for upflows...right. Otherwise I can only assume that cleaning out clogged condensate lines is an easy buck. Inspector had no comment. I took it upon myself to drill a hole in the elbow at the furnace. Better to leak on floor than to shut down heat.

    " Why didn't they drill the proper size holes in the wall, instead of using a plate with a BUNCH of caulk? "

    The plate was made by me to cover up an unused 4" hole. I assumed they would be using 3" pipe. I was wrong and they used caulk to fill the gap. Sloppy job yes, but is was also 15 Degress outside. I cleaned it up later after it dried.

    "(and the inlet pipe is not straight on the outside)"
    does not bother me. pipes are ungly even when plumb.

    "And at the furnace, I would have come straight up to a 45 then a short pipe to the 90. (would look better and used less fittings) "

    I agree. But at this point will probably not bring it up. If they try to re-work it, they could damage the furnace fittings, or get PVC shavings in the burner. Screw things up even more.

    "Why is there a lock on the electrical disconnect? "
    prevent vadalism. I took it off.

    "With the pipes in the corner, you might get some recirculation of the flu gases."

    That is a radon system that always has suction on it. It was my desire to drain the condensate into the gravel bed as opposed to a long pipe across the floor.

    "I hope I didn't affend you, but this is my honest opinion."

    Jultzya, thanks for your opinion.
    Yes it was painful. I picked this contactor because he did his own tin, had 30 years experience and was the only one who recommended re-sizing the furnace. Unfortunately for me, the buisness owner had a family emergency (really) and so the first day was only his #2 and #3 people. I think they made a reasonable effort. But on day #2, they were a little behind and things started moving quickly towards the end of the day and that resulted in some slop.

    Funny how everyone praises each other on tin work, but the transition on this install was not recognized.

  11. #11

    Re: response - info

    Originally posted by edumacated

    Did my own temp rise test and it is around 40 Deg F. Spec for furnace is 40-70 Deg F.

    "No drain trap."
    Not for upflows...right.

    "With the pipes in the corner, you might get some recirculation of the flu gases."

    That is a radon system that always has suction on it. It was my desire to drain the condensate into the gravel bed as opposed to a long pipe across the floor.

    Funny how everyone praises each other on tin work, but the transition on this install was not recognized.
    Good to hear from ya, here is my follow-up to your reply.

    Get them back out there and have them perform a temperature rise test. Not saying you did it wrong, but if your right, the unit needs some attention. Running it at the lowest spec's isn't necessarily a good idea. You want it to run close to the middle of the range.

    I trap everything! And the up-flow does indeed need the trap. (more so than the counter-flow)

    The pipes in the corner I was referring to, is the flu and combustion pipes outside the home. Them being in a corner could create some re-circulation of flu gases under the right conditions.

    The sheet metal transition looks good. Many times we as professionals (and being perfectionists), we can get wrapped up in looking for the bad points and overlook what they did right. This is the case here, I seen many things I didn't like and commented on those, while not mentioning the good points.
    Like, the outside pvc clamp/holder assembly and even though the gas union is inside the cabinet, they did install a proper drip leg.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Vancouver Canada
    Posts
    996
    Comment on the transition, who are we kidding my 12 year old daughter can make a tansition like that. It is probably the easiest one to make. Don't like to rain on your parade but if my workers left a job with all that sealer slopped all over, they certainly would be sent back to rectify the situation.

  13. #13
    so wait, that IS condensate pouring out onto your basement floor? also, you said you know its not right to have the union INSIDE the cabinet, why not have them come fix that situation for you? if that were my personal install in MY house, i wouldnt let half those things fly.

    as a matter of fact, installing 90%'s all the time, i NEVER let those issues fly, crooked pipes, "illegal" unions, thing of that nature are to be considered during the install, not afterwards while staring at pictures.

    my two cents

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