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  1. #27
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    53
    Had a similar problem with a new install. Every time the furnace would come on we would get an instant headache and nose/throat irritation. CO levels were 0. I believe it was the manufacturing oils and chemicals used in the furnace, coil, and ductwork. The furnace only ran on the first stage for a short time because of mild temps so it never burned off. I opened all the windows and ran it on high for several hours. The condition eventually went away.
    Also make sure your CO detectors are in the sleeping areas.

  2. #28
    It sounds like your furnace is now venting through your water heater. A tech properly trained with a combustion annalyzer can find this, it isn't rocket science. Has he checked draft? How about checking for blower interfernce with the draft also. What about static pressures? If your dust is not properly sized those wonderful air filters kill your static. Also if the return air is leaky you will down draft your chimney and the furnace will vent out the water heater. Also if the furnace isn't properly tuned with a combustion annalyzer it is actually less effiecent then what you took out. You need to get this looked at by a qualified tech before your family gets hurt. JMHO.
    Brian

  3. #29
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Central Kentucky
    Posts
    6,248
    Originally posted by non-hvac tech guy
    Keep in mind that most UL-listed CO alarms that have the digital readouts maintain a "peak level observed" that can be seen by pressing the peak level or simiar button (like on the Kidde Nighthawk ones). While they will not alarm below those high levels, they do record any CO levels that they observe (down to 5ppm or so from what I've read) and you can see that by pressing peak level. I make it a habit to hit that button and look at the result on each of my CO alarms (Nighthawks) once a day so I know if low levels of CO are/have been lurking.

    Might be worth trying that on yours and seeing if any CO levels have been observed that didn't trigger the alarm action.
    non-tech,you better look twice at the alarm that you are using. Any alarm with a UL 2034 rating is useless for protection.
    They are not designed to read CO levels this low.
    If you want an alarm that actually does monitor low level CO look at the NSI 3000 from National Comfort Institute.
    Brian it is great to see you posting,when I saw airhead 1164 I thought it might be you.
    Jonny,take Jim Davis' advice along with airhead 1164 they know what they are talking about.

  4. #30
    From the owners manual for the Kidde Nighthawk 810-1571, "the peak level feature is helpful in identifying low level CO occurances below 30PPM. Although the unit will not automatically display levels below 30PPM, it will detect and store those readings in memory...concentration levels as low as 11PPM and up to 999PPM will be displayed."

    From the coexperts.com website, "UL listed CO alarms will now be required to IGNORE low level concentrations of CO -- 30 ppm -- for at least 30 DAYS without sounding an alarm signal. UL listed CO alarms are now required to ignore concentrations levels of 70 ppm or less for AT LEAST one hour before sounding an alarm signal."

    As can be seen (unless I'm reading these fairly simple paragraphs mistakenly), the UL-listed alarms are designed to not ALARM at these low levels - they sure can detect them and store that information (and show them upon that peak-level feature), they just cannot (and do not) go into an alarm state based on these low levels - which, as I understand it, is the point behind the UL standards - to reduce/eliminate alarms based on low-level transient conditions (however misguided that may be).

    If I'm wrong, please point me to some documentation that shows it, as I would love to know - I'm here to learn!

  5. #31
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    sacratomato
    Posts
    535
    Obviously CO testing should be performed.
    Not being there is hard to say, but it could be as simple as your new furnace blows twice as much air as the old one, so you’re having a reaction to the dust that is being distributed while running. (Add and Aprilaire 5000)

    Double checking the flue pipes on both the water heater and furnace for proper size, could be oversize since you went with a smaller power draft furnace.( duravent.com has some technical info), checking draft, and possible CO spillage should be done on the water heater. When the furnace is running and the water heater kicks in are the flue gases going up and out or are they "spilling" out into the room.

    I believe Davidr mention the low level CO meters,
    http://www.nationalcomfortinstitute....?product_id=21


    [Edited by binford on 12-24-2004 at 03:23 PM]

  6. #32
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Central Kentucky
    Posts
    6,248
    Originally posted by non-hvac tech guy
    From the owners manual for the Kidde Nighthawk 810-1571, "the peak level feature is helpful in identifying low level CO occurances below 30PPM. Although the unit will not automatically display levels below 30PPM, it will detect and store those readings in memory...concentration levels as low as 11PPM and up to 999PPM will be displayed."

    From the coexperts.com website, "UL listed CO alarms will now be required to IGNORE low level concentrations of CO -- 30 ppm -- for at least 30 DAYS without sounding an alarm signal. UL listed CO alarms are now required to ignore concentrations levels of 70 ppm or less for AT LEAST one hour before sounding an alarm signal."

    As can be seen (unless I'm reading these fairly simple paragraphs mistakenly), the UL-listed alarms are designed to not ALARM at these low levels - they sure can detect them and store that information (and show them upon that peak-level feature), they just cannot (and do not) go into an alarm state based on these low levels - which, as I understand it, is the point behind the UL standards - to reduce/eliminate alarms based on low-level transient conditions (however misguided that may be).

    If I'm wrong, please point me to some documentation that shows it, as I would love to know - I'm here to learn!
    non tech,you have already been to coexperts.com. This website has a ton of information as why you should not trust a UL 2034 alarm.
    It should scare you that the alarm you are trusting your family to does not alarm at low levels.That is if the sensor is even functional.
    Go back to coexperts.com & find the picture Rudy Leatherman took of a co experts alarm & a kidde nighthawk sealed in a plastic bag with 100 PPM of CO being pumped into the bag.
    The nighthawk shows 0 PPM while the co experts is displaying 67 PPM. This is after one minute of exposure time.
    Also do a google search on carbon monoxide & look up some of the test that have been run showing real world response times for UL 2034 alarms.
    I am not trying to be argumentative on this subject, but I believe you need to be protected from the dangers that are posed from long term low level CO exposure.
    As you posted the kidde can ignore levels below 30 PPM for at least 30 days,something to think about.



    [Edited by davidr on 12-24-2004 at 04:23 PM]

  7. #33
    Originally posted by davidr
    I am not trying to be argumentative on this subject, but I believe you need to be protected from the dangers that are posed from long term low level CO exposure.
    As you posted the kidde can ignore levels below 30 PPM for at least 30 days,something to think about.
    [Edited by davidr on 12-24-2004 at 04:23 PM] [/B]
    I am also not trying to be argumentative. I understand everything you said and it makes sense. But your original comment was that no UL-listed alarm is designed to detect low levels of CO and they are (atleast the ones I have seen are) - they are just designed to not alarm on them. I beleive that I need to be protected form low level CO exposure as well and that is why I do the peak level test on the alarms every day or so - if there is any CO I'll see it and if its long term, I'll see that too. I have also tested all of my alarms every season with the cigarette smoke test and they all record the observed CO levels and display them upon pressing the peak level button.

    Again, I don't mean to be argumentative - I understand what you say and I understand the falacity of relying on these things if you don't actually look at the levels they record and not alarm on. I know I'm probably one of the only people that have these things and use the peak level feature regularily and that is one major problem with UL-listed alarms.

    Thanks for the discussion - it is interesting. Happy holidays.

  8. #34
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Central Kentucky
    Posts
    6,248
    non tech,I still stand by my comments about UL 2034 alarms reading at lower levels.
    The nighthawks sensor is +/- 20% but not at lower levels.
    If I'm correct this info is also in the instruction manual.
    This is if the unit was made after 98 when they changed sensors.
    Check out the sensor section on co experts.com,there is alot of information you will find useful.
    Thank you for your interest on this topic,it is one that I take very seriously since I found out the truths associated with CO poisoning & the procedures used to test for it.

  9. #35
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    East Stroudsburg, PA
    Posts
    13,215
    Originally posted by BoltonNC
    Originally posted by lumberg

    You can buy filters that you cut to size and actually put behind the registers also.
    This is the worst advice ever given on this board.

    DO NOT put filters behind your registers unless you want higher utility bills, shorter lifespan of the equipment, and the possibly to crack the heat exchanger and kill everyone in the house! [/B]
    Yeah, that was pretty awful.

    Lumberg, what are you thinking, man????

  10. #36
    I find it interesting that none of the technicians that replied asked if you also had a Carrier (or other brand) electronic air cleaner installed. Those symtoms you have can be caused by too much ozone. I know, I had the exact same problem with my new house & had to do a boatload of research only to find that the installer had improperly connected the air cleaner---it was on all the time, even when the blower wasn't on. That causes an excess of ozone which is what is can cause those symtoms.

  11. #37
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    michigan
    Posts
    677
    Is this an older home? Was the chimney lined? This could be a source of CO. Also I like the sugestion of an air cleaner putting out excess ozone. Too much fighting about brands of CO detectors.You guys are genius'.

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