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  1. #1
    Hell No!!!
    Lazy isnt a bad word! But uneducated or "under-educated" certainly is!!!

    I have looked at the incoming snail mail a doctor gets daily. It is a pile!!! It is about continuing education. Materials to bone up on the latest techniques and proceedures.

    My wife is a nurse. She is required by law, to continue to study to show herself approved! It is called CEU's! She is required by law to go and study more things every singe year she is holding her license.



    But is the same true about our industry?

    Is there anyone holding us to any standard of "Continuing Educational Units"?


    So this one employer says he encourages his tech's to study the materials he provides for them. So what?

    Not all people learn the same way.


    So another employer says his techs are NATE.
    So what?

    Once they studied and learned how to pass the exam ... they are over with studying and right back to their old ways once again.

    Possibly taking the NATE was a job requirement or possibly it meant a raise.
    But once the exam was in the past ... it was left there. To collect dust!



    There is little or no motivation in the very best shops ... to provide suitable training materials AND get that material into the techs.

    It is just not happening!


    And in our industry, there is NOT a single organisation which has been chosen, selected, voted into being which will hold us to the highest standards available!

    I am not talking gov regulations here.
    I am simply stating the fact that a guy can be a tech and not know his potential because he sint educated to his full potential. And he doenst have a clue there even is a full potential. Much less how to acheive it.


    And when employers dont want to spend the moeny to send their people to day or weekend training seminars ... much less a week long affair ... how is a guy to make it?
    They dont. They dont go to the seminars.
    They stay home and work in place of attending the day long ice machine seminar, which is being held in their own town, just up the street.
    And their service manager never ever even once mentioned it was happening and would allow time off to go. With or without pay.
    Even though it was during a time of the season when work was so slow, the guys were averaging less then half their forty already.




    So what's the answer?


    or do we just do what usually takes place....

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Posts
    3,112
    Self improvement and motivation. To many people on this site balk at the mere mention of required technician certification and continuing education. The only answer is do what you can to improve yourself and then try to figure out how to educate the public and have them demand qualified technicians and installers. The other driving factor is money motivation. Provide all of the lip service you want, price does drive the sale. All of the bells, whistles and utility saving devices don't mean squat to the average homeowner. The lowest price gets the sale.

  3. #3
    Tests, certifications and plaques with your name on it don't really amount to a hill of beans. The more you want to learn and be the best at what you do, the more successful you will be.
    Hey cockroach, don't bug me!

    www.AskTheDiceman.com

    www.TheColdConspiracy.com

    www.Pennwood-HVAC.Com

    Bring Em Home....

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Ft Worth Tx ( North Richland Hills)
    Posts
    2,143
    I think alot of innovation was discovered by "lazy" people.
    A guy that got tired of hauling buckets of water said "screw this" and invented plumbing. Some guy felt sorry for his wife working herself to death doing laundry and put together an early washing machine.....Hard working sob's just did it....the smart lazy guy found easier ways.
    How can you have any pudding if you don't eat your meat?

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    in a house, Appomattox, Va.
    Posts
    3,427
    I think there's a difference between being lazy and being efficient with your time and labor. A lazy person will keep the status quo (easy, cheap, as little motion as possible regardless of quality), but the other guy will invest time and effort knowing he'll recoup it later on.

    Troyorr made a good point. You can keep learning but eventually you reach a point where you can't apply the knowledge because the customer or low ball market then becomes the limiting factor.
    Col 3:23


    questions asked, answers received, ignorance abated

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    1,195
    My wife is also a nurse, so I know what you are talking about. Many licensed trades require proof of ongoing learning regarding the state of their area of professional expertise. I don't why it should be any different for us.

    How many times have you had to deal with/follow up people who have been in the trade for 30 years who couldn't deal with a simple 5 wire heat pump, let alone the 8+ in modern systems? Should they be allowed to advertise to the public that they are 'professionals?'

    For my part, I think even behind-the-wheel driving exams should be retested every 10 years or so. What you once knew and could do are in no way related to what you must now know how to do. Some standards should be established and maintained so that the industry is not degraded into a 'handyman' status.
    "That's good enough..." usually isn't.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Fort Worth, TX
    Posts
    204
    I work for a reputable commercial HVAC company in Dallas / Fort Worth area. I have just graduated last april from a Technical school and was thrown out into the field with a cell phone for support.LOL yeah real funny, huh.
    But seriously, I wouldnt have it any other way. I have learned alot in a little time with this being thrown to the wolves. My beef is, I'm dying to further my knowledge on certain applications of my trade. My employer is very picky on who he sends to what. I finally was allowed to go to a pump class to learn about all the different seals and gaskets used for water pumps and ECT.....
    So I guess what I'm trying to say is in a way r12 is right.
    Most of us Techs are so ready to learn more and better ourselves......but I can not afford to do it myself. I will be paying my Tech school off for the next couple of years.

    I will be only as lazy as I need to be! LOL

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Fort Worth, TX
    Posts
    204
    Has anyone ever heard of a free clinic in our trade?

    Wonder why............sure would be nice!

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Fort Worth, TX
    Posts
    204
    Originally posted by ozone drone
    I think alot of innovation was discovered by "lazy" people.
    A guy that got tired of hauling buckets of water said "screw this" and invented plumbing. Some guy felt sorry for his wife working herself to death doing laundry and put together an early washing machine.....Hard working sob's just did it....the smart lazy guy found easier ways.
    That is so very true too!

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Location
    Middletown, Ohio, United States
    Posts
    573
    Our companiy's attitude appears to be- "Here's the book, go out and fix it!" For three years, I have been feeding them information in regards to training opportunities and certification." I am especially concerned with ammonia refrigeration. I've had discussions with supervisors in relation to this. My point in these discussions has always been- you can't follow your normal modus operandi here:
    you can't just give a guy a book and send him out to work on an ammonia refrigeration system.

    But probably they won't change unless someone gets hurt or
    there is significant damage to their tightly-closed pocketbook. I don't know if this type of insanity is standard for the HVACR industry in general or not. But you think an employer would view training as an investment in greater profitability. Sure, I can see their argument that if you train someone they'll seek opportunities elsewhere.

    But I counter with the argument that if people are leaving your company, perhaps you better look at what type of work environment that you, as an employer, are providing. Sure,
    some will leave no matter what but if you treat your employees well, you will retain a significant percentage.
    On-going training will indeed provide you with a significant return on investment.

  11. #11

    If we determine "Lazy" to be a bad word, then it would have to be referred to as the "L" word. That would bring it to three letters of the English alphabet that have special designators.


  12. #12
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    South Dakota
    Posts
    6,579
    Originally posted by R12rules
    Hell No!!!
    Lazy isnt a bad word! But uneducated or "under-educated" certainly is!!!

    I have looked at the incoming snail mail a doctor gets daily. It is a pile!!! It is about continuing education. Materials to bone up on the latest techniques and proceedures.

    My wife is a nurse. She is required by law, to continue to study to show herself approved! It is called CEU's! She is required by law to go and study more things every singe year she is holding her license.



    But is the same true about our industry?

    Is there anyone holding us to any standard of "Continuing Educational Units"?


    So this one employer says he encourages his tech's to study the materials he provides for them. So what?

    Not all people learn the same way.


    So another employer says his techs are NATE.
    So what?

    Once they studied and learned how to pass the exam ... they are over with studying and right back to their old ways once again.

    Possibly taking the NATE was a job requirement or possibly it meant a raise.
    But once the exam was in the past ... it was left there. To collect dust!



    There is little or no motivation in the very best shops ... to provide suitable training materials AND get that material into the techs.

    It is just not happening!


    And in our industry, there is NOT a single organisation which has been chosen, selected, voted into being which will hold us to the highest standards available!

    I am not talking gov regulations here.
    I am simply stating the fact that a guy can be a tech and not know his potential because he sint educated to his full potential. And he doenst have a clue there even is a full potential. Much less how to acheive it.


    And when employers dont want to spend the moeny to send their people to day or weekend training seminars ... much less a week long affair ... how is a guy to make it?
    They dont. They dont go to the seminars.
    They stay home and work in place of attending the day long ice machine seminar, which is being held in their own town, just up the street.
    And their service manager never ever even once mentioned it was happening and would allow time off to go. With or without pay.
    Even though it was during a time of the season when work was so slow, the guys were averaging less then half their forty already.




    So what's the answer?


    or do we just do what usually takes place....

    R-12. NATE does have continuing education requirements. In fact, that is the major reason that the manufacturers are backing NATE instead of the other certifications.

    With NATE the technician must accumulate 60 hours of continuting education over 4 years or must retest in order to remain certified.

    CEU stands for continuing education unit which is similar to college credits but does not apply to earning a college degree.

    Norm

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    12,077
    It comes down to this.

    Money.

    A lot of you guys have this attitude that the contractor is loaded with cash. I'd say thats only true 20% of the time. Now don't get me wrong. At the end of the day, when it's all said and done, the money in, then all the money out, there is always a little left over. But you all must remember that, it takes money for training. And the way this business can operate, cash flow is inconsistent for most shops. It's not that there broke, it's just that sometimes they can be rich in future work and current assets, and a lot of people owe them, but there present here and now, there cash poor. And I am sure other guys can relate to this.

    During slow periods, when there is time to send guys to good expensive training, that always seems to be the time when the company's cash flow is in a crunch. When all you guys are hopping skipping and jumping in 100 degree weather, the companys got cash, but can't find time to send you to training.

    And I don't know how many of you have experience truly evaluating training. I am an employer, and there is nothing more than I want than well trained technicians. I attend and encourage others to attend the cheapy classes like the teardown refreshers that carlyle and copeland do at their distributors. The ice machine refreshers from Hoshi, Mani, and Scotsman. All decent, and helpful for the experienced guy for refresher. But it aint much in the way of, real great training to learn something new. Those are cheap classes. That check is easy to write. Those manufacturers treat those events kinda like transparent sales events beleive it or not.

    Now, how about a decent Trane Summit building controls course for example. Or a chiller course at York or Mcquay. Usually lasting from four days to 2 weeks. All wonderful training. Proffesional, you will learn your ass off. But.

    Let's say I send you to that RTAA chiller course up in La Crosse WI and is over 2 grand, then I got to fly my tech there, room and board him, per diem him, there is another grand, then I got to pay him, there is another grand. So I am going spend 4 grand, to send him to school for a week for a chiller we only work on 5 times a year, during the slow period of the year when I am strapped for cash.

    Thats tough guys. So don't think the guy you work for is an ******* just yet. You got to remember, I am sure, he wants you trained, and talks about it, and says he is gonna get you there. He himself is trying his ass of to figure a way to do it.

    These things are not cheap. I wish that a lot of these manufacturers would start offering reasonable prices for in house shop visits for training. But they seem to never want to work with the contractors. Were all rich you know.

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