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  1. #664
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    NJ
    Posts
    1,214

    Re: What do you think?

    Originally posted by john dalton
    Dear Diceman,

    Regarding your post;

    “One think I still can't understand, if freezing up is your big issue, why didn't anyone put a freeze stat on that unit. They are very reliable, easy to install and cheap.”

    Although this would stop the HVAC system from freezing up, it would also stop the compressor as well, and therefore the cooling. We are looking for a way to not control the freezing of the evaporative coil assembly, but a way to actual prevent it from freezing altogether, even when the server room is at 65 degrees F or below, well below the standard operating temperatures for normal air conditioning systems.

    We have suggested the use of hot gas bypass in the form of a DBV valve system. Do you have another form to use, if not, do you think this system and valve would be appropriate?

    Respectfully Submitted,
    John J. Dalton

    OH I do!!!! I do!!!!

    Being in serverroom's locale there are a lot illegal haitan immigrants hire a few for around the clock monitoring when they see ice starting to build up they shut off the system and put a heat gun on it....U may get lucky serverroom sometimes they will be willing to work for the whole day for a case of REDSTRIPE.
    thehumid1-------I live in NJ, a state where it's free to come in but you have to pay to leave!

  2. #665
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Hollywood, FL
    Posts
    365
    I actually just got an idication that when the summer comes along and I begin to see porblems with the system, I may get the money to upgrade...see all this hard work did pay off....I just spoke with my boss and I gave the report that 70 is the lowest we can feasibly go, and who knows if it can even be that low in the summer....after discussing it, I got approval to do it had it not been done yet...we will wait until the summer to make a change, but I think I will have the proper funds to do it right then!!!!!!

  3. #666
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Hollywood, FL
    Posts
    365
    the humid1..you are getting your ethnic groups a bit mixed up.

    There are more Cubans down here, Hatians too, but probably more Cubans, and Red Stripe is Jamaican Beer

    I'm a computer guy, I trust computers more than people!!

  4. #667
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    NJ
    Posts
    1,214
    Originally posted by serverroomcooling
    the humid1..you are getting your ethnic groups a bit mixed up.

    There are more Cubans down here, Hatians too, but probably more Cubans, and Red Stripe is Jamaican Beer

    I'm a computer guy, I trust computers more than people!!
    No I am not see Cubans become legal as soon as they touch land so no way will they do it...yes I know Red Stripe is from Jamaica but not even the Haitians would trust beer made in Haiti because of the animosity between Dominicans and Haitaians they don't drink Dominican so its Red Stripe but actually most cannot afford it.

    Well computers are more reliable than humans most of the time...I like a combo part computer part human like the REAL DOLL.
    thehumid1-------I live in NJ, a state where it's free to come in but you have to pay to leave!

  5. #668
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Hollywood, FL
    Posts
    365
    thehumid1, you are right, cubans do become legal as soon as they can....and I agree with your statement...you are a pretty worldy guy....

    btw, I belong to a community of Computer Experts, the site is called Experts-Exchange if I had more time, I would participate more, but the problems, no matter how big or tough they are, usually get fixed within 30 posts, and that would be a long one. My answer is usually accepted about 55% of the time. 33/60

    I admire your devotion to your community, I am amazed at your patience throughout this ordeal, and like I said pages and pages ago, I have a new respect for you guys.

    Not that you care, but here is a list of my answered questions, this experience has proven the worth and wealth of the Internet!!

    1 11/27/2004 500 Baracuda Spam Filtering Accepted PAQ Networking
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  6. #669
    I understand they want to prevent freeze ups, but I got the impression they cheaped out on the install too. A freeze stat is a good back up to any kind of HGB or fan cycle control.
    At this point, it won't hurt, till they get a Liebert or something.
    Hey cockroach, don't bug me! ©

    www.AskTheDiceman.com

    www.TheColdConspiracy.com

    www.Pennwood-HVAC.Com

    Bring Em Home....

  7. #670
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Hollywood, FL
    Posts
    365
    if I could find a qualified guy, I would do it....but 4/5 comapnies I brought in said a liebert or similar is overkill and I will be fine at 65 with a system like what I have. No mention of any modifications. I'm willing to make modufucations if I could find a reputable company to install and service.

    I knew I needed a liebert type system. I was going to put in an APC precision AC system, which is probably similar to the Mini-Mate, but did not get the money....I can make any modifications I want, but I'd rather be content at 70 for now than find a guy to install and cross my fingers....if this system dies, I'll get a Liebert

  8. #671
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Posts
    181
    Humid1 I absolutely agree a flooded condenser is THE best method of head pressure control. I just dont think it is needed in this application. If wind is a concern wind baffles ( as recommended by some manufactures) could be installed with a cond fan speed control. I too would not recommend cond fan cycling contol but as I said before I think he already has it. And yes John your right if serveroom needs the room below 70 he will need to control evap press(HGB). I posted under the assumption that 70 was good. Dice may have a good idea though with a freeze stat as a safety to stop a freeze-up. Much like a high press control you hope you never need it but it was a good thing it was there.

  9. #672
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Hollywood, FL
    Posts
    365
    Could I get notified via email if the freeze stat starts to work? This way I could get there to figure out how to keep the room stable

    That would be great

  10. #673
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Los Angeles, CA
    Posts
    1,560

    STOP MISQUOTING ME................

    Dear Thehumid1,

    Regarding your post:

    “Ok I understand to prevent icing this would be the only valve needed for that..”

    Yes.


    “Yet the EPR itself could be used for that as matter of fact one of the reasons it is used on multi evap systems the epr's are put on the evaps that have higher operating temps then the evap with the lowest operating temp so that these ones do not ice up.”

    I can see by you trying to apply this valve incorrectly that you maybe understand some of the basic operating conditions of this type of valve and process, but lack the experience in understanding the full operating characteristics of this valve and process. I will go into the explanation in detail as I attempt to answer the latter part of this post, but for now I’ll make the following statement: The application of the EPR in a system that has a high temperature compressor, as the Trane Climatuff is, and an DBV would result in the suction line pressure downstream of the EPR that would be lower than the Trane compressor manufacture, or any high temperature compressor manufacturer, would recommend for their compressor. In other words, the EPR would cause the suction pressure at the compressor to be lower than it’s design pressure and therefore cause problems at the compressor.


    ”BAJA BUGGY: My thought was to use both one the EPR to maintain a set evap pressure so the coil regardless of load fluctations and set the EPR at 43 psig(R-22) which would be the equivalent of 20 degrees fahrenheit then the evaporator HGB valve would kick in when the coil was close to icing ... it would be a constant battle between the two valves but it should ensure the lowest possible evap temp without icing...
    And in this case the valve would be used many times a day ensuring the customer got his monies worth out of the valve.”


    First and foremost, the lowest possible evaporative coil temperature is not, I repeat, is not what we are after. We are simply after a way of preventing the evaporative coil surface from beginning to freeze in the first place…..and nothing more.

    In addition to your above recommendations: If you installed a DBV, like we both have agreed to use, and set it properly (53 PSIG), then installed the EPR, and set it to the above setting that you recommend (43 PSIG), then the EPR would never close, and hence be totally useless.

    Of course the right evap fan/coil setup with elec defrost would be have been better from the get go but had nothing better to think about today.

    Absolutely not my friend! Electric defrost would never be applicable in this project. That would be a “reactive” and not “proactive” approach to our problem. Ane once again, the system would be cycled off on cooling while the evaporative coil assembly defrosted, a very bad thing.


    ”And of course since you did not answer my questions...

    I will make posibly my last attempt to convert you from fan cycling control “

    In the 51 pages of this tread I have never suggested, recommended, outline, or described fan cycling control as a good means of condensing coil capacity reduction!

    In the 51 pages of this tread I have never suggested, recommended, outline, or described fan cycling control as a good means of condensing coil capacity reduction!

    In the 51 pages of this tread I have never suggested, recommended, outline, or described fan cycling control as a good means of condensing coil capacity reduction!

    Read my posts!!!!!!!!!!!

    Where in the world did you get that idea????????

    Do you even know what a Johnson Control P66 controller is????? If you think it is a fan cycling control….you are dead wrong!

    Please read my post on page 49, 11th post from the top, coped here for your convenience:

    4. The JC P66 condensing fan controller is a variable speed controller that controls the operating speed of the condensing fan motor, while monitoring the pressure of the system’s refrigeration liquid line. The controller utilizes a closed sensor loop algorithm type system to match the speed of the condensing fan motor to maintain precise and constant liquid line pressure. This controller does not harm the condensing fan motor, extends the useful life expediency of the motor, saves energy, is relatively inexpensive, is reliable, rouged, and has a great track record in the industry.

    After you read this would you do me a big favor…..stop misquoting me!

    Thank you…….

    Respectfully Submitted,
    John J. Dalton


  11. #674
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Los Angeles, CA
    Posts
    1,560
    Dear Thehumid1,

    Regarding your post:

    “But.....it does not seem your system has a problem with icing from low ambient conditions as if it was 45 degrees out...In South Florida you are looking at 21.8 days under 60 degrees a condition that will occur 6% percent of the systems operating time in a year.”

    I agree with you that at 45 degrees F outside, the system not freezing up was a good test of low ambient outside the building. But, this doesn’t tell us anything about the low load conditions inside the server room, this we will have to wait and see.


    ”Maintaining your 70 degree setpoint at a 97 ambient needs to be seen as much more of your problem will be your desire for this lower setpoint which will be harder to achieve in higher ambient temps but I still think you will squeek by.”

    I agree that this test, on a typical three day summer holiday weekend, with the building’s HVAC system off, will be the determining factor regarding whether the heat load estimate was correct or not.

    Respectfully Submitted,
    John J. Dalton

  12. #675
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Los Angeles, CA
    Posts
    1,560
    Double post...sorry

    [Edited by john dalton on 01-24-2005 at 08:30 PM]

  13. #676
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    604
    Serverroomcooling,
    You can be notified by monitoring a set of contacts on the freezestat. Get a single throw double pole switch. One set of contacts to cycle your unit and the other for your monitoring system.

    Now I'm going to go out on a limb here. How about cycling the unit on a low pressure switch rather than a t'stat. This should prevent freeze up and also maintain a room temp. Operation would be similar to a walkin box.
    What's the thoughts on this? It's the simplest solution.
    I'll let the other fellers hash out cond. press. control.

    [Edited by r718 on 01-24-2005 at 08:51 PM]

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