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  1. #53
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    Serveroomcooling,

    Please do let this forum know how it turns out and our prayers and hopes go with you in this holiday season. Have a great Christmas and keep in touch.

    Respectfully Submitted,
    John J. Dalton

    PS: I wonder if your HVAC contractor knows of this forum....you might want to introduce him to it. Thanks again.

  2. #54
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    Nov 2004
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    I will defenitly let him know about the site!!

    I did a tremendous amount of research myself before I began this thread, I think this is a great, great service!!

    I will give you guys updates as soon as we begin

  3. #55
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    Nov 2004
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    Hollywood, FL
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    the condensor is on the roof, and the handler is in the server room. The plumbing is all finished, and the electricians are working to get the power on. One duct needs to be extended and then we can turn the unit on. The digital thermostat is on the outside of the handler and I have another thermometer that is on the opposite side of the room, and they both read the same temperature. I think that is a good thing....I hope to turn it on today or tomorrow

  4. #56
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    What did you decide on the condensor fan switch/hot gas bypass valve or nothing?
    thehumid1-------I live in NJ, a state where it's free to come in but you have to pay to leave!

  5. #57
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    It seems from youir post he did not feel it was necessary and I do understand the 24/7 365 days a year concept, Mr Dalton and if it is that much of a concern I would not even consider the fan switch as I already stated on cold windy days this option is rendered useless.But again I think the contractor is correct and doing what is norm for your location and do not think you will have any problems with your system even putting in a smaller system is better as if you expand the server room then you can add another system like I first posted 2 systems is much better as if one goes down at least some cooling is taking place. Good luck and please do let us know how it turns out. See if on the cold days if your system still cools.
    thehumid1-------I live in NJ, a state where it's free to come in but you have to pay to leave!

  6. #58
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    Take the guess work out of this industry!

    Dear Thehumid1.

    I take extreme exception in your following quotes:

    “…even putting in a smaller system is better as if you expand the server room then you can add another system…”

    “Putting in a smaller system”…….. I’ve been taught all my professional life that you engineer the job FIRST……and then you don’t have to guess at the results! Based upon the information presented, even a five ton cooling system will not work under MOST conditions. See above heat load post!!!!


    “See if on the cold days if your system still cools.”


    See if the system works……..See……What in the world is engineering for if not to know if a system is going to work or not! See….you’ve got to be kidding. Again, if it doesn’t cool…..what then…….a mad dash scramble for temporary cooling units to mask the problem once again.

    Excuse me but we as professionals should be able to tell if an engineered system is going to work or not, before the first screw is installed!!! But then again……the system you’re suggesting to this end user is not engineered but guessed at!

    Give me a break!

    Most Respectfully Submitted,
    John J. Dalton

    PS: Sorry for the caps and exclamation points but……..come-on…again….what is engineering for if not to tell if a system is going to work or not??????



  7. #59
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    NJ
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    Re: Take the guess work out of this industry!



    I take extreme exception in your following quotes:

    ““ How many of these residential or commercial units ran 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365/6 days a year even when it was cold and raining outside????Some sort of condensing speed or flooding will be require on this project, remember the client can’t afford to be down even on the occasional cold day. Thank you! "-DALTON

    First of all Mr engineer I have not come across any of these units that ran 24/7/365 days a year as the units I have installed were designed well enough that they would at times pull the conditioned area down to the desired temperature and cycle off.

    Your other point about the condensing fan speed control you can read my previous posts about it's drawbacks.
    The other hot gas bypass valve would be good for a type A personality customer probably like you who worries about his own shadow but not necessary in the climate it is located therefore not suggested by the contractors in that area.
    As for my commenet:

    “See if on the cold days if your system still cools.”

    I already know the answer to this question is yes but just want him to post so I can laugh at those claiming it's absolute necessity but have no real world experience in the climate it is being installed in.

    “…even putting in a smaller system is better as if you expand the server room then you can add another system…”

    Well this was taken out of context of the entire sentence which referred to my original post about the original post by Serverroomcooling .However smaller though was a bad choice of words but I was referring to using a 2 zone system like sysint suggested where the original post on this thread spoke about 5 tons being the eventual load of the area not undersizing the system for the actual load(then the system might run non stop without shuting off 24/7/365 like you want it to). What I was stating the advantages of using 2 systems over one 5 ton as you can see from my original post I was referring to:

    You also need to figure for how many people are in the room. I agree with SYSINT on the 2 system setup for two reasons. Not only will you have efficiency but you will at least have one system working when one breaks down which is probably important for the conditions you mentioned. Also you may want to look into what kind of control systems each contractor offers. You want to be able to check and set temperatures from a remote location and you should be able to set it so it pages you in case it gets above a certain temperature in that area.

    Again all due respect to you and your stated experience but how many systems have you designed and installed in South Florida?
    I do agree with one statement you made though:

    "Several of my colleagues have already stated you should not design this project from this forum." as I stated in my one of my previous posts this was good advice and still is and if you read serverroomcoolin posts he didn't he choose the advice of one of 3 contractors he trusted who is reputable and already doing work in his building and his contractor and had done a heat load calc but obviously from post disputing this you really did not read the whole thread for 30 minutes like you said or maybe due to age you
    just no longer retain information as well as you used to.

    and in serverroomcoolings own words:
    Do I know what to do? No, but I feel I can trust him to get the unit in and stand by it. He instsits that the unit he is installing can handle 24 hour operation in all weather with no problems.

    Just in case you missed it...Again the contractor insisted that the unit he is installing can handle 24 hour operation in all weather no problem.

    And again Serverroomcooling your contractor seems to be right on with what he is doing I just can't wait till you post how well it works without the bypass valve so I can I have a big party in this thread and be done with it.








    thehumid1-------I live in NJ, a state where it's free to come in but you have to pay to leave!

  8. #60
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    Please answer the following four simple questions!

    Dear Thehumid1,

    Regarding your quote:

    “First of all Mr engineer I have not come across any of these units that ran 24/7/365 days a year as the units I have installed were designed well enough that they would at times pull the conditioned area down to the desired temperature and cycle off.”

    1. I ask you question #1:

    Based upon the client stated 12,000 Watts of equipment load, the lighting in the room (not stated as yet), the people load (none mentioned), the 100 square foot computer room structure load on the top floor of a seven story building, and the 59 to 90 degree F average days throughout the year( as provided by the weather channel). What is the rated heat load in this room????

    BTY: Just for the sake of running loads, lets say the lighting load is 200 watts(2 watts per square foot average), the people load is zero, and we have an average concrete/steel, and glass constructed seven story building.

    Over 5 tons right………yep!

    Now the client(serverroomcooling) has selected a contractor who has ran his own heat load and is recommending a 3 ton HVAC system.

    I ask you question #2:

    What do you think of this selection in terms of capacity of cooling equipment vs. capacity of heat load?

    And #3;

    How many hours a day will this HVAC system have to run to cool the heat load outlined above?

    And #4:

    How many actual air changes an hour will this three ton system produce based upon an average of 196 cubic feet of computer equipment space inside the room and an average of 400 CFM/ton of cooling?

    Would you most respectfully answer these four simple question??????

    Respectfully Submitted,
    John J. Dalton



  9. #61
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    Information Please

    Dear Thehumid1,

    Regarding your quotes:

    The other hot gas bypass valve would be good for a type A personality customer probably like you who worries about his own shadow but not necessary in the climate it is located therefore not suggested by the contractors in that area.

    Please answer the following question. At an outside air temperature of 59 degrees, will a typical air cooled cooling unit start to freeze up if allowed to run for six to eight hours without cycling?


    Again all due respect to you and your stated experience but how many systems have you designed and installed in South Florida?

    Not a one….but, and you know there’s always a but……based upon a design temperature outside of 59 to 90 degrees F, what is the difference of a system in Hollywood, FL or Hollywood, CA?

    “…you really did not read the whole thread for 30 minutes like you said or maybe due to age you just no longer retain information as well as you used to….” I in fact read the entire thread, and retained the information better than in my youth, but do highly disagree the stated heat load calculation of 3 ton for this project!

    Respectfully Submitted,
    John J. Dalton

    PS: Optional answer on your part, but was just highly curious regarding your age and experience in the business? I’m 48 years old and have been in the business for 30 years full time.

    PSS: Really don’t mean to make you mad, but just want answers to the above questions….really.


  10. #62
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    Jun 2004
    Location
    Richmond Virginia
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    You guys need to work the problem and stop bashing each other. You're forgetting that this thread was started by a computer room guy who readily understands he would like a Cadillac but knows that he could only afford a Chevy. Can you blame the guy (for selecting the tonnage he did) if he got several contractors to look at the job and got close to the same load calculations from all of them? Perhaps they saw or observed something that wasn't posted here? Most likely the computer equipment wattage figures were overstated. As for the fan cycling. The "humid one" worked in the area for many years and his experience should not be tossed aside so easily. All who come here are professionals trying to better themselves and learn something and perhaps teach some others as well. Even the few guys from Puerto Rico and Mexico who occasionally post (but leave you thinking "huh?") should be commended for at least trying to learn. The statement that the unit would need fan cycling to run and not freeze up after many hours of continous operation is a little puzzling. Of course the outdoor air temps would have no affect on the equipment in the room but drastically change the heat gain from the exterior wall and roof. If the unit is forced to run continously under those outdoor temps, he's going to have bigger problems such as an undersized unit. One thing that I've advocated on here before is having the equipment vendor run a load calculation. In my area this service is provided at no cost as long as I'm buying from them.


  11. #63
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    Question #1 and first of all I would never use the weather channel I would be using ACCA's Table 1 Manual J. There are still missing factors are walls exposed or against conditioned space and how high are they,are their any windows in the room and what u factor are they and direction do they face, is the 6th floor below conditioned. Is there a ventilated attic space above, and what r value exists between the ceiling of the server room and the roof, Is the 12,000 watts from the computers and 200 watts from the lights(is lighting fluorescent or incandescent? ballasts put off heat) the only loads from electric in the room or are there others fan motors,timeclocks, etc.

    But from your info 12kw is 40k btuh,200 watts lighting flourescent would give you about 1400 btuh which is 42k or 3.5 ton just on that information.

    Question #2 as you propose my answer would be undersized under your scenario...However serverroom said aprox 12,000 watts and how was that determined every piece of equipment will not be running at full load simultaneously 24 hrs a day and then you added the other variables. As an alternate scenario I propose the serverroom is in the basement of the same building with the 1st floor area above the server room deep freezer for a meat packing operation. or better yet Profeesor plum in the green room with a candlestick.

    #3 which system- your suggested 5 ton or the 3 ton to be installed? As I proposed it 42k if everything ran simultaneously at full load 24hrs a day (which is not reality) it still would depend on an outside temps,whether or not it was day or night, However I will answer this along with your statement:

    "Not a one….but, and you know there’s always a but……based upon a design temperature outside of 59 to 90 degrees F, what is the difference of a system in Hollywood, FL or Hollywood, CA?"


    There is a tremendous difference especially in latent loads I worked in San Diego for 2 years where you that climate tries to add humidity this climate tries to remove so this contractor by using 3 ton will have a slightly longer runtime thanif he used a 3.5t but reduce the latent humidity load in doing so. In La/ san diego you would not want as long as runtime because you want to remove the heat load as quickly as possible so as not to pull what little humidity that does exist out or as many do have add a swamp cooler system to put humidity into the conditioned space as well. So the answer is a big difference.



    And #4: First this disclaimer: Traditionally, the tightness or ventilation of a space has been expressed in air changes per hour. However, many professionals routinely use CFM as the primary unit of measure. Although both units clearly have their uses, CFM is more easily obtained, because it does not require calculations of volume. More importantly, it is a more direct expression of the main variable with which we are concerned. Although ACH includes an adjustment for the size of the building, that consideration may be less important than others and can be taken into account in other ways. If we are interested in estimating heating/cooling cost or sizing a heating/cooling system, we are concerned only with the flow itself, not the flow as it relates to volume.

    If we are considering ventilation levels, we can more easily deal with CFM rather than ACH, and are probably more concerned with absolute flow than the flow as compared to volume. If we are dealing with small, heavily occupied spaces (trailers, apartments) or large spaces with few occupants, ACH can be misleading. (ACH can sometimes make a large space look tighter and a small space look leakier.) For these and other reasons, CFM is being used more often, and ACH less.

    Now that said :

    well first of all what is the ceiling height?
    but guessing it is 8 which would leave you with 600 cubic feet of airspace if no one is inside it. And then if there is no door just an open passway to the next room it would really screw things up but I will guess the room has a door that is fairly tight and no windows or ones that dont leak like a siv so I will guess it is a perfectly sealed room and all the duct is in the conditioned space so it will leak into the room if it does and that the ductwork was properly sized. In a perfect world you would have 120 ACH. Your mileage will vary if it is a blower door world.


    PS: Optional answer on your part, but was just highly curious regarding your age and experience in the business? I’m 48 years old and have been in the business for 30 years full time.

    PSS: Really don’t mean to make you mad, but just want answers to the above questions….really

    A) It does not make me mad at worst if you prove me well actually I am pretty stubborm you would have do more than that you would have to convince BEYOND ANY DOUBT I was wrong and if you do besides a bruised ego and a tail between my legs I will have learned something which I am always open too...really.

    b) I am 38 with 2 years school where I worked in the trade while I was in school. 5 years working for others, 5years for myself- all residential/light commercial a/c refrigeration all in Florida. 1 year working training techs for a York distributor for the Riviera Maya Mexico based out of Cancun,2 years all commercial work in San Diego, and now I back in NJ for about a year and a half where I am from because my family is here and I got custody of two kids and need the help raising them but I started my own business last April here, but my main income is working for an engineering /architect that does energy star homes certifications and design and won this years energy star partner of the year award I have been design doing mostly load calcs/duct design for homes in Northern New jersey for that company and through working for them I was able to get my own contract doing rebate sizing reviews and inspections for a utility here (although it looks like that gravy train may be taken over by the state in a few months). I also attended a regular college for 2.5 years before I started school for airconditioning. Roughly 17 years I guess education and experience 12 of it in Florida. If you want to prove me wrong beyond a reasonable doubt try asking me heating or ice machines questions. As until San Diego the only heat I was exposed to was electric and ice machines well they just suck........ I have worked on marine and aviation systems as well. In Florida I did a lot of work for Pratt Whitney engineers that were ...well "just being engineers" but I learned how to stand my ground by defending myself against the ideas and theories they came up with on how they where teach me some new innovative way to do airconditioning....the scariest one was a jet engine turbine designer who closed off half his return and drywalled it in and wouldn't believe me the system was not working right because of airflow problems. I had installed it he didn't like the return cause it was too big and on an open living room wall so He "fixed" cause his buddy another engineer said bla blah.. I finally got my sawzall cut the whole back open almost hitting him as he was trying to grab it out of hand cause he didnt want me to do it then I showed him the rise in the suction pressure and he said nothing......I told him the cutting was free but if he wanted me to put the original return back for him it would be $250 as it his changes were not included in the warranty and left. The next spring he called for a maintenance service the return was back and he apologized then he told he can't believe he could not understand it was an airflow problem as that is what he does Turbine design.......I pray before I get on Boeings using pratt whitneys.

    Ok learn me now Senor........ I really do like too learn and you can never know it all in this industry, those who think they do.....work as SEARS installers.




    thehumid1-------I live in NJ, a state where it's free to come in but you have to pay to leave!

  12. #64
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    Mar 2004
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    NJ
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    Please answer the following question. At an outside air temperature of 59 degrees, will a typical air cooled cooling unit start to freeze up if allowed to run for six to eight hours without cycling?

    I can't believe I almost forgot about this bonus question. 6 to 8 hours? what about 5hrs 45 minutes 30 seconds....

    Seriously yes it would be possible but excluding Goodman as typical most units (this one being a trane) have a low pressure safety switch in case the refrigerant leaks out of the system that would cycle the unit off. So my answer would be most typical units would not run the 6 to 8 hours as you described but I understand your point but other factors as well what if the condensor was sitting on a flat black roof typical of Florida even though your weather channel ambient is 59 degrees the actual ambient around that condensor will be higher. The condensor fan pulls its air thru the condensor coil and it is also pulling it across the black roof (which in Florida is absorbing solar heat faster than my ex wife max's out credit cards). The air being pulled across the roof absorbs heat from it...as somewhere along the line I learned heat moves towards where it is absent(i.e. cold). So the 59 degree air being pulled across the roof actually picks heat from the roof so the actual air being pulled across the condensor would be higher would it not?

    The only thing I think I am learning here is for every scenario proposed there is an opposite or exception to it.

    But your question did not specify time of day,whether it was sunny or rainy, roof conditions so I decided to go with those.


    I think this also serves as a reminder for me how diligent I need to be when designing a system not to overlook the hidden conditions like installing a return in the diaper room of a kinderkare.
    thehumid1-------I live in NJ, a state where it's free to come in but you have to pay to leave!

  13. #65
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    May 2004
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    Truce

    Dear Thehumid1,

    First and foremost, it would appear from Seaboard’s last post our discussion on the above matter is being viewed as “bashing each other”. It never was or currently is my intention to bash you or anyone else on this forum. I take full responsibility for all the information I post, all the tones I implied, and unfortunately all the tones perceived from my posts, to that end:

    Thehumid1, if I have offended you or bashed you, I’m truly sorry. That is not why I joined or why I post to this forum. I joined and post to this forum for only two reasons. One is to pass along any information and experience I have gathered in the course of my profession. The other reason is purely a selfish one, I want to learn from the countless years of schooling and experience represented and posted here on this forum.

    Having said that, I’d like to address the problem at hand rather than the personalities of this thread, which is many, as it should be.

    Having reread all the posts again, oh ya, all of them, I have come to the following conclusion:

    Thehumid1 and I have two separate issues:

    1. We seem to disagree about the validity of the existing heat load of this server room.

    2. We seem to disagree if any condensing capacity control needs to be installed on this unit.

    Please help me out here Thehumid1.

    First I conclude that the Trane 3 ton system and the contractor selected by serverroomcooling meet with your approval. And two, I conclude no condensing capacity control will be required on this 3 ton split system.

    Is that correct?

    Respectfully Submitted,
    John J. Dalton



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