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Thread: cooling a small server room

  1. #61
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    Information Please

    Dear Thehumid1,

    Regarding your quotes:

    The other hot gas bypass valve would be good for a type A personality customer probably like you who worries about his own shadow but not necessary in the climate it is located therefore not suggested by the contractors in that area.

    Please answer the following question. At an outside air temperature of 59 degrees, will a typical air cooled cooling unit start to freeze up if allowed to run for six to eight hours without cycling?


    Again all due respect to you and your stated experience but how many systems have you designed and installed in South Florida?

    Not a one….but, and you know there’s always a but……based upon a design temperature outside of 59 to 90 degrees F, what is the difference of a system in Hollywood, FL or Hollywood, CA?

    “…you really did not read the whole thread for 30 minutes like you said or maybe due to age you just no longer retain information as well as you used to….” I in fact read the entire thread, and retained the information better than in my youth, but do highly disagree the stated heat load calculation of 3 ton for this project!

    Respectfully Submitted,
    John J. Dalton

    PS: Optional answer on your part, but was just highly curious regarding your age and experience in the business? I’m 48 years old and have been in the business for 30 years full time.

    PSS: Really don’t mean to make you mad, but just want answers to the above questions….really.


  2. #62
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    You guys need to work the problem and stop bashing each other. You're forgetting that this thread was started by a computer room guy who readily understands he would like a Cadillac but knows that he could only afford a Chevy. Can you blame the guy (for selecting the tonnage he did) if he got several contractors to look at the job and got close to the same load calculations from all of them? Perhaps they saw or observed something that wasn't posted here? Most likely the computer equipment wattage figures were overstated. As for the fan cycling. The "humid one" worked in the area for many years and his experience should not be tossed aside so easily. All who come here are professionals trying to better themselves and learn something and perhaps teach some others as well. Even the few guys from Puerto Rico and Mexico who occasionally post (but leave you thinking "huh?") should be commended for at least trying to learn. The statement that the unit would need fan cycling to run and not freeze up after many hours of continous operation is a little puzzling. Of course the outdoor air temps would have no affect on the equipment in the room but drastically change the heat gain from the exterior wall and roof. If the unit is forced to run continously under those outdoor temps, he's going to have bigger problems such as an undersized unit. One thing that I've advocated on here before is having the equipment vendor run a load calculation. In my area this service is provided at no cost as long as I'm buying from them.


  3. #63
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    Question #1 and first of all I would never use the weather channel I would be using ACCA's Table 1 Manual J. There are still missing factors are walls exposed or against conditioned space and how high are they,are their any windows in the room and what u factor are they and direction do they face, is the 6th floor below conditioned. Is there a ventilated attic space above, and what r value exists between the ceiling of the server room and the roof, Is the 12,000 watts from the computers and 200 watts from the lights(is lighting fluorescent or incandescent? ballasts put off heat) the only loads from electric in the room or are there others fan motors,timeclocks, etc.

    But from your info 12kw is 40k btuh,200 watts lighting flourescent would give you about 1400 btuh which is 42k or 3.5 ton just on that information.

    Question #2 as you propose my answer would be undersized under your scenario...However serverroom said aprox 12,000 watts and how was that determined every piece of equipment will not be running at full load simultaneously 24 hrs a day and then you added the other variables. As an alternate scenario I propose the serverroom is in the basement of the same building with the 1st floor area above the server room deep freezer for a meat packing operation. or better yet Profeesor plum in the green room with a candlestick.

    #3 which system- your suggested 5 ton or the 3 ton to be installed? As I proposed it 42k if everything ran simultaneously at full load 24hrs a day (which is not reality) it still would depend on an outside temps,whether or not it was day or night, However I will answer this along with your statement:

    "Not a one….but, and you know there’s always a but……based upon a design temperature outside of 59 to 90 degrees F, what is the difference of a system in Hollywood, FL or Hollywood, CA?"


    There is a tremendous difference especially in latent loads I worked in San Diego for 2 years where you that climate tries to add humidity this climate tries to remove so this contractor by using 3 ton will have a slightly longer runtime thanif he used a 3.5t but reduce the latent humidity load in doing so. In La/ san diego you would not want as long as runtime because you want to remove the heat load as quickly as possible so as not to pull what little humidity that does exist out or as many do have add a swamp cooler system to put humidity into the conditioned space as well. So the answer is a big difference.



    And #4: First this disclaimer: Traditionally, the tightness or ventilation of a space has been expressed in air changes per hour. However, many professionals routinely use CFM as the primary unit of measure. Although both units clearly have their uses, CFM is more easily obtained, because it does not require calculations of volume. More importantly, it is a more direct expression of the main variable with which we are concerned. Although ACH includes an adjustment for the size of the building, that consideration may be less important than others and can be taken into account in other ways. If we are interested in estimating heating/cooling cost or sizing a heating/cooling system, we are concerned only with the flow itself, not the flow as it relates to volume.

    If we are considering ventilation levels, we can more easily deal with CFM rather than ACH, and are probably more concerned with absolute flow than the flow as compared to volume. If we are dealing with small, heavily occupied spaces (trailers, apartments) or large spaces with few occupants, ACH can be misleading. (ACH can sometimes make a large space look tighter and a small space look leakier.) For these and other reasons, CFM is being used more often, and ACH less.

    Now that said :

    well first of all what is the ceiling height?
    but guessing it is 8 which would leave you with 600 cubic feet of airspace if no one is inside it. And then if there is no door just an open passway to the next room it would really screw things up but I will guess the room has a door that is fairly tight and no windows or ones that dont leak like a siv so I will guess it is a perfectly sealed room and all the duct is in the conditioned space so it will leak into the room if it does and that the ductwork was properly sized. In a perfect world you would have 120 ACH. Your mileage will vary if it is a blower door world.


    PS: Optional answer on your part, but was just highly curious regarding your age and experience in the business? I’m 48 years old and have been in the business for 30 years full time.

    PSS: Really don’t mean to make you mad, but just want answers to the above questions….really

    A) It does not make me mad at worst if you prove me well actually I am pretty stubborm you would have do more than that you would have to convince BEYOND ANY DOUBT I was wrong and if you do besides a bruised ego and a tail between my legs I will have learned something which I am always open too...really.

    b) I am 38 with 2 years school where I worked in the trade while I was in school. 5 years working for others, 5years for myself- all residential/light commercial a/c refrigeration all in Florida. 1 year working training techs for a York distributor for the Riviera Maya Mexico based out of Cancun,2 years all commercial work in San Diego, and now I back in NJ for about a year and a half where I am from because my family is here and I got custody of two kids and need the help raising them but I started my own business last April here, but my main income is working for an engineering /architect that does energy star homes certifications and design and won this years energy star partner of the year award I have been design doing mostly load calcs/duct design for homes in Northern New jersey for that company and through working for them I was able to get my own contract doing rebate sizing reviews and inspections for a utility here (although it looks like that gravy train may be taken over by the state in a few months). I also attended a regular college for 2.5 years before I started school for airconditioning. Roughly 17 years I guess education and experience 12 of it in Florida. If you want to prove me wrong beyond a reasonable doubt try asking me heating or ice machines questions. As until San Diego the only heat I was exposed to was electric and ice machines well they just suck........ I have worked on marine and aviation systems as well. In Florida I did a lot of work for Pratt Whitney engineers that were ...well "just being engineers" but I learned how to stand my ground by defending myself against the ideas and theories they came up with on how they where teach me some new innovative way to do airconditioning....the scariest one was a jet engine turbine designer who closed off half his return and drywalled it in and wouldn't believe me the system was not working right because of airflow problems. I had installed it he didn't like the return cause it was too big and on an open living room wall so He "fixed" cause his buddy another engineer said bla blah.. I finally got my sawzall cut the whole back open almost hitting him as he was trying to grab it out of hand cause he didnt want me to do it then I showed him the rise in the suction pressure and he said nothing......I told him the cutting was free but if he wanted me to put the original return back for him it would be $250 as it his changes were not included in the warranty and left. The next spring he called for a maintenance service the return was back and he apologized then he told he can't believe he could not understand it was an airflow problem as that is what he does Turbine design.......I pray before I get on Boeings using pratt whitneys.

    Ok learn me now Senor........ I really do like too learn and you can never know it all in this industry, those who think they do.....work as SEARS installers.




    thehumid1-------I live in NJ, a state where it's free to come in but you have to pay to leave!

  4. #64
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    Please answer the following question. At an outside air temperature of 59 degrees, will a typical air cooled cooling unit start to freeze up if allowed to run for six to eight hours without cycling?

    I can't believe I almost forgot about this bonus question. 6 to 8 hours? what about 5hrs 45 minutes 30 seconds....

    Seriously yes it would be possible but excluding Goodman as typical most units (this one being a trane) have a low pressure safety switch in case the refrigerant leaks out of the system that would cycle the unit off. So my answer would be most typical units would not run the 6 to 8 hours as you described but I understand your point but other factors as well what if the condensor was sitting on a flat black roof typical of Florida even though your weather channel ambient is 59 degrees the actual ambient around that condensor will be higher. The condensor fan pulls its air thru the condensor coil and it is also pulling it across the black roof (which in Florida is absorbing solar heat faster than my ex wife max's out credit cards). The air being pulled across the roof absorbs heat from it...as somewhere along the line I learned heat moves towards where it is absent(i.e. cold). So the 59 degree air being pulled across the roof actually picks heat from the roof so the actual air being pulled across the condensor would be higher would it not?

    The only thing I think I am learning here is for every scenario proposed there is an opposite or exception to it.

    But your question did not specify time of day,whether it was sunny or rainy, roof conditions so I decided to go with those.


    I think this also serves as a reminder for me how diligent I need to be when designing a system not to overlook the hidden conditions like installing a return in the diaper room of a kinderkare.
    thehumid1-------I live in NJ, a state where it's free to come in but you have to pay to leave!

  5. #65
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    Truce

    Dear Thehumid1,

    First and foremost, it would appear from Seaboard’s last post our discussion on the above matter is being viewed as “bashing each other”. It never was or currently is my intention to bash you or anyone else on this forum. I take full responsibility for all the information I post, all the tones I implied, and unfortunately all the tones perceived from my posts, to that end:

    Thehumid1, if I have offended you or bashed you, I’m truly sorry. That is not why I joined or why I post to this forum. I joined and post to this forum for only two reasons. One is to pass along any information and experience I have gathered in the course of my profession. The other reason is purely a selfish one, I want to learn from the countless years of schooling and experience represented and posted here on this forum.

    Having said that, I’d like to address the problem at hand rather than the personalities of this thread, which is many, as it should be.

    Having reread all the posts again, oh ya, all of them, I have come to the following conclusion:

    Thehumid1 and I have two separate issues:

    1. We seem to disagree about the validity of the existing heat load of this server room.

    2. We seem to disagree if any condensing capacity control needs to be installed on this unit.

    Please help me out here Thehumid1.

    First I conclude that the Trane 3 ton system and the contractor selected by serverroomcooling meet with your approval. And two, I conclude no condensing capacity control will be required on this 3 ton split system.

    Is that correct?

    Respectfully Submitted,
    John J. Dalton



  6. #66
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    Yes I would concede that is it in a nutshell where we disagree and I may have been abrasive as you walked in the end of a long thread and where at first I doubted your ability to tie your own shoelaces(not bashing it is my general first assumption about everyone) I also concede that certainly is not the case and even though we differ on our opinions of a certain application I will say I respect the experience that arrived at it which is 10 years more than mine but again South Florida is a unique climate the southern most point in the U.S. so I feel my experience "in my backyard" is good and I understand your concern about the icing up of the system and in any other location of the U.S. would agree with you(except maybe Hawaii). The load calc without a crisatl ball I cannot really tell as the variables that have not been given are too many but I do disagree with your 5 ton assessment but understand why you arrived at it. Again also if I did agree with the 5 ton assessment(I do not) for this type of application would never reccommend installing a 5t system but 2-2.5 tons.
    I think besides my words in time if server reports back how the system works we will find which school of thought was correct. And you have kept me on my toes making think of why I know the things I know which is always good for my learning process or helps me get rid of faulty thinking when I have always done something a certain way maybe because I was taught it or whatever but then when examined I have actually no technical basis for why I do it. However,that I did not find to be the case here so:

    First I conclude that the Trane 3 ton system and the contractor selected by serverroomcooling meet with your approval. And two, I conclude no condensing capacity control will be required on this 3 ton split system.

    The above as you stated is my professional stance on this and I am sticking to it. Again #2 only because of the geographical location. Otherwise I would agree with that
    I think I explained my reasoning on the 3 ton which I know you disagree with which is ok with me.
    I believe I will be right in this case but that does not really matter the purpose of this thread was to offer advice to serverroom and I think he got more than he ever bargained for...lol. Ultimately it was his decision and he made an educated choice, he asked for advice here, got a 3 estimates I think, the contractor he chose did a load calc and is not some fly by night but already does work in his building.
    That was the purpose of this thread till it was hijacked by me to get in a peeing contest about what I know cause that is where I was born so to speak in the Hvac trade and so I am passionate about my backyard but I am willing to eat crow and Kowtow if serverroom comes back and updates us with a horror story.
    thehumid1-------I live in NJ, a state where it's free to come in but you have to pay to leave!

  7. #67
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    Finally something I can talk about!!!

    I am an I.T. guy and have over-seen the building and or remodeling of computer rooms and data centers.

    The last time I managed a project it was a disaster from the A/C side. The HVAC pro. suggested the unit not be oversized. Well the guy, here, paying the bills said heck no bigger is better. So he had them drop in 15 tons which was contrary to the load calc. by the experienced HVAC person.

    So the outcome is as follows:

    Unit cycles on/off on/off all the time
    Room is not adequately cooled!!
    Bigger like my boss thought is not better.
    Paid way to much for excess capacity we can NEVER use since it is a high rise and the server room was built from smaller rooms.

  8. #68
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    Re: Finally something I can talk about!!!

    Originally posted by west_seth
    I am an I.T. guy and have over-seen the building and or remodeling of computer rooms and data centers.

    The last time I managed a project it was a disaster from the A/C side. The HVAC pro. suggested the unit not be oversized. Well the guy, here, paying the bills said heck no bigger is better. So he had them drop in 15 tons which was contrary to the load calc. by the experienced HVAC person.

    So the outcome is as follows:

    Unit cycles on/off on/off all the time
    Room is not adequately cooled!!
    Bigger like my boss thought is not better.
    Paid way to much for excess capacity we can NEVER use since it is a high rise and the server room was built from smaller rooms.
    Especially in Hotlanta gets as humid as South Florida there (just doesn't stay that way as long) but that is exactly why it is so critical not to oversize in our climate. On the West Coast, except for maybe the higher electrical from the cycling, it is not as critical because they don't have the moisture removal needs of our climate.
    thehumid1-------I live in NJ, a state where it's free to come in but you have to pay to leave!

  9. #69
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    Secking help in my train of thought

    Dear Thehumid1,

    I take extreme exception regarding the following statement:

    “…South Florida is a unique climate the southern most point in the U.S.”

    Hawaii is in fact the southern most part of any state in the United States….. Just kidding!


    Thank you as well for your words of respect. And yes, not only do I respect your 17 years in the business, but also your 12 years working in that area of the country.

    I would really like your option on one of my assumptions though. I’m basing my entire option of what I have been outlining by my posts on this thread on one thing.

    The following was posted by serverroomcooling on page 2 of this thread, second post from the top.

    “BBCMG04, great post....I have all that information, just never knew really how to use it properly. I have 52 AMPs running to a UPS and everything is plugged into it. I believe the line is 208 volts, which should be 10816 of average watts, am I right??”

    I took the 52 amps from above and multiplied it by the 208 volts to get 10,816 watts of heat being generated from the actual computer equipment in the room. I next multiplied the 10,816 watts by 3.412 to get 36,904 BTU of heat being generated from the computer room equipment alone. Next I took this 36,904 BTU/Hr of sensible heat(all heat generated from electrify is sensible heat) and multiplied it by 1.4 (All standard HVAC units with anywhere between 400 and 500 CFM/per ton will only put out approximately 69 to 73% sensible heat from their total BTU capacity) and came with 51,665 BTU/Hr or 4.3 tons of cooling.

    I also remembered that serverroomcooling said the computer room was located on the top floor of a seven story building and that the computer room itself was approximately 100 square feet. I assumed there would be lights in the room and that people may or may not be in the room.

    Based upon the above information and formulas I made the following assumptions:

    1. Based upon “some” light in the server room the minimum interior heat load would be above 4.3 tons.

    2. Based upon whether the outside temperature was 90 degrees or 60 degrees, the structure load of the building would be adding or subtracting additional BTU to this minimum base interior load.

    3. Therefore, the cooling system required to work in this room would have to have a minimum capacity of at least 4.3 tons, but in fact the cooling load on a 90 degree day would be somewhat higher.

    Based upon the above train of thought, I concluded the 3 or 3.5 ton cooling system would not work on this project.

    Taking a step further, I concluded the contractor who supposedly ran a heat load calculation on this room and recommended a 3 ton system did not do his job right from the very beginning of this project.

    Thehumid1, would you please review my train of thought and help me see where I made a mistake regarding this project.

    Your anticipated help is very much appreciated. Waiting for your reply…….


    Respectfully Submitted,
    John J. Dalton




  10. #70
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    well guys....I have an update. We put in a 3 Ton Trane unit, split system....the handler is in the front corner of the room (blocking my window, but at this point I could careless), the condensor is on the roof.

    All but one of the ducts are up and running, but we have begun testing the unit. There are missing ceiling tiles, which means there is a lot of flow up into the ceiling since the main return for the floor is on top of my server room, but the room still cools down to 70 degrees and the system shuts off for about 7 minutes before turning on again....I would think that once the ceiling tiles are put back and caulked (as I need to do that for my inergen fire system) the room will stay cooler for longer.

    Is that good? Is 7 minutes off the handler shutting off good for the system?

    so far it seems to working good. I shut off my portable spot coolers and things are much cooler now than with the spot coolers.

    The avg temp now is much lower than a few weeks back....it's 70 today, and will drop under that, but it still gets hot up here in the building. The thermostat on the handler was reading 86 prior to turning on the unti, and now it reads 69/70 and turns on if it get hotter than that.

    I'll be monitoring closely, any advice you might have would be greatly appreciated

  11. #71
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    Ok here where is where I think you have erred in your ways.


    Note the prior post to this By Bbcmg04:
    3. The Total nameplate equipment watts is the MAXIMUM consumption of power. In the small PC and Server systems they NEVER use their max power. It depends on the actual usage but you can figure any where from 50% to 70% as your normal power load.

    Also I am assuming serverroom is correct that he has 208v not 120v to all the equipment and the total rated amperage on the name plates is 52 amps. Which gives 10,816 watts x 3.412=36,904 which becomes the load for the room.
    which is the 3 tons the contractor installed.

    Why?
    Next I took this 36,904 BTU/Hr of sensible heat(all heat generated from electrify is sensible heat) and multiplied it by 1.4 (All standard HVAC units with anywhere between 400 and 500 CFM/per ton will only put out approximately 69 to 73% sensible heat from their total BTU capacity)

    I am not forgetting this point you made(first the multiplier should x 1.3 not 1.4 that would represent 60%)

    However the load of 36,904 needs to be reduced by between 50% to 70% per point #3 made at the top of this post. To be generous we will figure 70%. So the 30% the load is reduced is a wash out with the 30% capacity multiplier.

    Which leaves a load of 36,904. Making three tons a good choice maybe a maximum of 3.5 tons depending on other factors and conditions of the room.



    FOR SERVERRROOMCOLLING: MORE IMPORTANT THAN HOW LONG IT SHUTS OFF MONITOR HOW LONG IT RUNS FOR AND HOW MANY TIMES IN ONE HOUR MIDDAY IT CYCLES ON AND OFF. ALTHOUGH IT WILL CYCLE MORE THIS TIME OF YEAR AS THE OUTDOOR AMBIENT IS LOWER THIS TIME OF YEAR REDUCING THE HEAT LOAD IT SHOULD BE RUNNNING 5 MINUTES/OFF 7MINUTES,RUNNING 5 MINUTES/OFF 7 MINUTES AS THIS KIND OF CYCLING IS NOT GOOD MONITOR IT AND POST IT.THANKS.



    thehumid1-------I live in NJ, a state where it's free to come in but you have to pay to leave!

  12. #72
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    ALSO MR DALTON GUAM IS ACTUALLY SOUTHERNMOST POINT LOL... LET ME KNOW IF MAYBE I MISSED SOMETHING IN MY PREVIOUS POST BUT THATS HOW IT LOOKS TO ME THRU MY BEER GOGGLES!
    thehumid1-------I live in NJ, a state where it's free to come in but you have to pay to leave!

  13. #73
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    I will try to monitor the cycles...I guess the best way for me to do this is to sit in there for a few hours and just jot down when it goes on and off

    here's what I have so far. I have a monitoring probe on my power subsystem. last night with just the spot coolers going, the temperature on that probe (which is inside the unit somewhere) was close to 90. right now, it bounces between 80 and 81 with occassional spikes to 82 and 83. This is great because at night the temp in the building rises as the main AC in the building is off. The bad news is that I can't monitor AC cycles at night, but I like the fact that I can monitor the temp inside the power device. It's a pretty good point of reference....it's probably the hottest area of the room.

    Early indications show that we are doing much better than we were last night....all I can do now id hope and pray that the unit holds up.....I'll continue to update

  14. #74
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    Are you saying in addition to the newly installed system you are running spot coolers as well in the same conditioned space and if so where are you venting the hot air from them too? What exactly are you taking the temperature of that was 81 degrees is that a probe inside one of the server machines?
    thehumid1-------I live in NJ, a state where it's free to come in but you have to pay to leave!

  15. #75
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    the spot coolers are off and have been off since 2:30 earlier this afternoon, so only the new 3 ton AC unit is working now. The probe...I'm actually not sure exactly where it is. I don't think it is the internal temp, it must be a probe near the outside of the unit, probably near the back....the unit is near the back of the room where the room begins to go to the point of the triangle. The last duct will be right on top of that area, and should be installed in the morning.

    the handler is pulling air out of the room, and the opened ceiling tiles are also sucking air out, but that is only during regualr business hours, after hours the main building AC is off, so so the returns are not sucking air out of the server room.

  16. #76
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    Are you telling me besides the 3 ton system a main building a/c has a return in that room? is that correct?
    does it have a supply drop too if that is correct?

    thehumid1-------I live in NJ, a state where it's free to come in but you have to pay to leave!

  17. #77
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    the server room is eventually going to be sealed off from the main building AC...right now it is not b/c we have ceiling tiles that are unsealed and moved to finish the duct work. Tomorrow, when the duct work is finished I will close the ceiling and seal up all the holes.

    directly on top of the room is one of the main returns for the floor. When the ceiling is sealed, that return has very little affect on the room. I know this b/c of the door pressure test that was done prior to passing inspection for the Inergen fire system.

    so right now, I am being affected by the main building AC, mostly during the day, but that is only temporary....there are no vents that blow into the server room from the main building AC

    So right now, there is 3 tons of AC being pumped in from my seperate Trane unit, and things look like they are holding up.

  18. #78
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    the return for the building is up in the drop ceiling directly above my server room

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    I know this b/c of the door pressure test that was done prior to passing inspection for the Inergen fire system.

    I am not sure I know what you mean by this are you talking about a blower door test?

    You really dont want a another system in play in the room especially only a return and here's why when your room reaches design temperature (the temp you set your thermostat too) and the main building a/c is on what will happen is that return will suck your conditioned air out of the room and since no air is being put back in the room by that system it creates a negative air pressure in the room which means the room is going to be sucking air in from wherever it can cracks in the walls,doors, exterior windows, ext anywhere it can to stabilize the pressure void caused by the air being sucked out by that return. So not only does it suck out your cool air it draws in hotter air to the room this will cause your unit to cycle more cause every time it reaches design temp when the main a/c is running the air gets immediately sucked out.

    This is not good. Make sure it really is sealed personally I would insist on that return being capped off if I was installing your system but if what you are telling me about
    the test you had done if it was a blower door test it would tell you how much infiltration and would be extremely accurate if it was done correctly but I am still not sure I would take the chance as once the new system is installed the return has no reason to be there other than to cause a problem. To begin with that design was not good as air should be balanced. It is impossible to be perfect but the goal is to put back in the same amount of air that you take out of a room so neither a positive or negative pressure condition occurs here that wasn't even being attempted.

    What size is this return?
    thehumid1-------I live in NJ, a state where it's free to come in but you have to pay to leave!

  20. #80
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
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    Thread Starter
    It's a very large return and can not be capped off, I lost that battle a long time ago, I did not want the server room in there for that reason.

    The door blower test...I don't know the lingo, but it was a big fan that was placed in the doorway. The entire door was blocked up and the fan was blowing inward for one test and outward for others. The goal of the test was to prove that the room was sealed properly to make sure that the inergen gas would stay in the room upon discharge, at least long enough to displace the oxygen so it would extinguish the flames. For testing purposes that time is 10 minutes.

    when the ducts are finished I will be sealing the room personally as I have been doing every time we need access above the ceiling. I use silicone caulk as well as grout and spackle. Obviously it is not perfect, but I think it is certainly adequate.

    Right now, as the mail building AC is on, the low temp on my probe is 78, and on/off cycles seem to be in the 10 minute range...I will be spending time in the room to get the real on/off cycles after I close the ceiling. I will report back

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