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  1. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by pageyjim View Post
    I disagree I had a dozon sources showing this. I can't find them right now but here a couple showing otherwise.

    The Churching Of America
    For example, on the eve of the American Revolution, probably about 17 percent of Americans were churched. "On any given Sunday morning," Finke and Stark drolly note, "there were at least as many people recovering from late Saturday nights in the taverns of these seaport towns as were in church." By 1906, slightly more than 50 percent of Americans were churched; today, about 62 percent claim active church membership. And even nonmembers show a brand loyalty. On no national sample has the percentage answering "none" when asked about religion reached 10 percent. Then why do we hear so much about secularization from both intellectuals and religious leaders? Because intellectuals begin with the wrong question and religious leaders confuse their faith with the market, say Finke and Stark.
    I suspect any increase in the number of people who are "churched" is due to improved record keeping, better access to churches and, the definition of the term.

    A far higher percentage of people in our early history were religious than now. Many of them practiced at home because of the lack of churches and transportation issues. Back then, the parents took the role of spiritual leader in the home when church wasn't nearby or convenient. Just because these people weren't "churched" doesn't mean they weren't devout believers.

    It's easy for a clever person to cook the books with figures and stats. I have zero doubt that the US has moved further away from God over the years.

  2. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by k_fridge View Post
    I suspect any increase in the number of people who are "churched" is due to improved record keeping, better access to churches and, the definition of the term.

    A far higher percentage of people in our early history were religious than now. Many of them practiced at home because of the lack of churches and transportation issues. Back then, the parents took the role of spiritual leader in the home when church wasn't nearby or convenient. Just because these people weren't "churched" doesn't mean they weren't devout believers.

    It's easy for a clever person to cook the books with figures and stats. I have zero doubt that the US has moved further away from God over the years.
    I agree that being close to God has nothing to do with going to church.

    Figures on church attendance and church formation support these opinions. Between 1700 and 1740, an estimated 75-80% of the population attended churches, which were being built at a headlong pace.

    By 1780 the percentage of adult colonists who adhered to a church was between 10-30%, not counting slaves or Native Americans. North Carolina had the lowest percentage at about 4%, while New Hampshire and South Carolina were tied for the highest, at about 16%
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History..._United_States
    "War is cruelty,and you cannot refine it." Sherman to the leadership of Atlanta prior to burning the city.

    "Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen."
    Albert Einstein

    Romney campaign: "We're not going to let our campaign be ruled by fact-checkers,"

    Lindsey Graham: “We’re not generating enough angry white guys to stay in business for the long term.”

  3. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by geerair View Post
    Barton is a known forger and has had to remove numerous bogus quotes from his books.


    His story about the bible and congress is a myth.
    Dear geer, since you made the claim that Barton is a known forger perhaps you would enlighten us with clear examples of such forgery. It is one thing to make the claim and something very different to back it up with evidence.
    "No matter how thirsty your imagination, mirages contain no water"

  4. #17
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    Below is a short section from an essay by Greg Koukl reacting to the issue regarding the church affiliations of our founding fathers. It turns out that our founding fathers were very much into church membership and a serious interest in following the Holy Scriptures as they understood it. Their world view was based on the Bible and its teachings. Here is a portion of Greg's essay.


    "This issue is actually very simple. The phrase "Founding Fathers" is a proper noun. In other words, Founding Fathers refers directly to a very specific group of people (although I think you could be a little bit flexible and include a little wider group of people). Those who intellectually contributed to the Constitutional convention were the Founding Fathers. If we want to know whether our Founding Fathers were Christian or deists, one needs only to look at the individual religious convictions of those 55 delegates of the Constitutional convention.

    How would we know that? We look at their church membership primarily, and also at their correspondence. Back then church membership was a big deal. In other words, to be a member of a church back then, it wasn't just a matter of sitting in the pew or attending once in a while. This was a time when church membership entailed a sworn public confession of biblical faith, adherence, and acknowledgment of the doctrines of that particular church.

    Of those 55 Founding Fathers, we know what their sworn public confessions were. Twenty-eight were Episcopalians, eight were Presbyterians, seven were Congregationalists, two were Lutheran, two were Dutch Reformed, two were Methodist, two were Roman Catholic, one is unknown, and only three were deists--Williamson, Wilson, and Franklin.

    To heap more fuel on the fire of my point, of the 55, the Episcopalians, the Presbyterians, the Congregationalists, and the Dutch Reformed (which make up 45 of the 55) were Calvinists, for goodness sake! In other words, these weren't just Christians, these were among the most extreme and doctrinally strict Christians around. Of the 55 delegates, virtually all of them were deeply committed Christians. Only three were deists. Even Franklin is equivocal because, though not an orthodox Christian, Franklin seems to have abandoned his deism early in life and moved back towards his Puritan roots. Indeed, it was 81 year old Franklin's emotional call to humble prayer on June 28, 1787, that was actually the turning point for a hopelessly stalled Constitutional convention. We have his appeal on record thanks to James Madison who took copious notes of the whole proceeding. His appeal contained no less than four direct quotations from Scripture. This does not sound like a man who was hostile to the Christian religion.

    But this assessment doesn' t answer a more fundamental question: Are we a Christian nation? It seems clear that most of the Founders were Christians, not deists. But what about the question "Are we a Christian nation?" I think the answer depends entirely on what is meant by "Christian nation."
    "No matter how thirsty your imagination, mirages contain no water"

  5. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh B View Post
    "This issue is actually very simple. The phrase "Founding Fathers" is a proper noun. In other words, Founding Fathers refers directly to a very specific group of people (although I think you could be a little bit flexible and include a little wider group of people). Those who intellectually contributed to the Constitutional convention were the Founding Fathers. If we want to know whether our Founding Fathers were Christian or deists, one needs only to look at the individual religious convictions of those 55 delegates of the Constitutional convention.
    First off only 40 of the 55 voted for ratification. Using your reasoning how did those 15 intellectually contribute?

    But thank God historians don't use your reasoning.
    The Founding Fathers of the United States were the political leaders who signed the Declaration of Independence in 1776 or otherwise took part in the American Revolution in winning American independence from Great Britain, or who participated in framing and adopting the United States Constitution in 1787-1788, or in putting the new government under the Constitution into effect. Within the large group known as "the founding fathers," there are two key subsets, the Signers (who signed the Declaration of Independence in 1776) and the Framers (who were delegates to the Federal Convention and took part in framing or drafting the proposed Constitution of the United States). Most historians define the "founding fathers" to mean a larger group, including not only the Signers and the Framers but also all those who, whether as politicians or jurists or statesmen or soldiers or diplomats or ordinary citizens, took part in winning American independence and creating the United States of America.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundin..._United_States
    "War is cruelty,and you cannot refine it." Sherman to the leadership of Atlanta prior to burning the city.

    "Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen."
    Albert Einstein

    Romney campaign: "We're not going to let our campaign be ruled by fact-checkers,"

    Lindsey Graham: “We’re not generating enough angry white guys to stay in business for the long term.”

  6. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by pageyjim View Post
    First off only 40 of the 55 voted for ratification. Using your reasoning how did those 15 intellectually contribute?

    But thank God historians don't use your reasoning.
    The Founding Fathers of the United States were the political leaders who signed the Declaration of Independence in 1776 or otherwise took part in the American Revolution in winning American independence from Great Britain, or who participated in framing and adopting the United States Constitution in 1787-1788, or in putting the new government under the Constitution into effect. Within the large group known as "the founding fathers," there are two key subsets, the Signers (who signed the Declaration of Independence in 1776) and the Framers (who were delegates to the Federal Convention and took part in framing or drafting the proposed Constitution of the United States). Most historians define the "founding fathers" to mean a larger group, including not only the Signers and the Framers but also all those who, whether as politicians or jurists or statesmen or soldiers or diplomats or ordinary citizens, took part in winning American independence and creating the United States of America.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundin..._United_States
    So! So, what is your point?
    "No matter how thirsty your imagination, mirages contain no water"

  7. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh B View Post
    So! So, what is your point?
    Yours was a very long post I was picking part by part to show where it is wrong.
    "War is cruelty,and you cannot refine it." Sherman to the leadership of Atlanta prior to burning the city.

    "Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen."
    Albert Einstein

    Romney campaign: "We're not going to let our campaign be ruled by fact-checkers,"

    Lindsey Graham: “We’re not generating enough angry white guys to stay in business for the long term.”

  8. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by pageyjim View Post
    Yours was a very long post I was picking part by part to show where it is wrong.
    You actually proved nothing. Regardless of how you view who the "founding fathers" were you will find that for the most part these men were those who subscribed to a judeo-christian world view and it was from that perspective that our country started.

    What is going on in our system of government today is a leftist perspective which is taking us away from the representative form of government we are founded on. Our constitution is getting twisted and revised without changing a word in it.

    This is going on from the left not from some fundamentalist Christian perspective. I consider myself a Christian and I favor perserving the constitution not twisting it. I rather like what Jefferson created assuming you continue to believe he wrote it all without consultation.
    "No matter how thirsty your imagination, mirages contain no water"

  9. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh B View Post
    You actually proved nothing. Regardless of how you view who the "founding fathers" were you will find that for the most part these men were those who subscribed to a judeo-christian world view and it was from that perspective that our country started.

    What is going on in our system of government today is a leftist perspective which is taking us away from the representative form of government we are founded on. Our constitution is getting twisted and revised without changing a word in it.

    This is going on from the left not from some fundamentalist Christian perspective. I consider myself a Christian and I favor perserving the constitution not twisting it. I rather like what Jefferson created assuming you continue to believe he wrote it all without consultation.
    Madison had more to do with drafting the Constitution than Jefferson did. I never said Jefferson wrote it without consultation.
    "War is cruelty,and you cannot refine it." Sherman to the leadership of Atlanta prior to burning the city.

    "Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen."
    Albert Einstein

    Romney campaign: "We're not going to let our campaign be ruled by fact-checkers,"

    Lindsey Graham: “We’re not generating enough angry white guys to stay in business for the long term.”

  10. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by pageyjim View Post
    Madison had more to do with drafting the Constitution than Jefferson did. I never said Jefferson wrote it without consultation.
    Yes, and the two of them gained input from all of those church attending Christians also serving on the convention. And it took the agreement of the church attending Christian signers to make it an official document.

    Not exactly a good argument that we need to fear the Christian right! I guess I am one of those current members of the Christian right and I am for perserving the current constitution and reading it as the founders and signers ment it to read.

    Unless you don't like the constitution and the opinon of the framers you have no reason to be afraid of me should I ever be in a position of political power.
    "No matter how thirsty your imagination, mirages contain no water"

  11. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh B View Post
    Yes, and the two of them gained input from all of those church attending Christians also serving on the convention. And it took the agreement of the church attending Christian signers to make it an official document.

    Not exactly a good argument that we need to fear the Christian right! I guess I am one of those current members of the Christian right and I am for perserving the current constitution and reading it as the founders and signers ment it to read.

    Unless you don't like the constitution and the opinon of the framers you have no reason to be afraid of me should I ever be in a position of political power.
    You think we should still have slavery? Do you think women should not vote? Do you think it should be up to every state who can vote?
    "War is cruelty,and you cannot refine it." Sherman to the leadership of Atlanta prior to burning the city.

    "Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen."
    Albert Einstein

    Romney campaign: "We're not going to let our campaign be ruled by fact-checkers,"

    Lindsey Graham: “We’re not generating enough angry white guys to stay in business for the long term.”

  12. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by pageyjim View Post
    You think we should still have slavery? Do you think women should not vote? Do you think it should be up to every state who can vote?
    No
    No & No

    I have no problem amending the constitution with the consent of the people and we have a process to do just that.

    The left and activist judges don't use the amendment process as that has failed them. The people don't want what the left attempts to do. So, the left makes an end run around the constitution and just revised the meaning of the constitution thru the schools and the activist judges.

    On another thread we see how they are willing to make the vote of a minority group equal to six votes of non minorities. This comes from the left not the Christian right! So much for the constitution. The left cares not a wiff about the constitution.
    "No matter how thirsty your imagination, mirages contain no water"

  13. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh B View Post

    On another thread we see how they are willing to make the vote of a minority group equal to six votes of non minorities. This comes from the left not the Christian right! So much for the constitution. The left cares not a wiff about the constitution.
    No Hugh everybody gets the same amount of votes.
    "War is cruelty,and you cannot refine it." Sherman to the leadership of Atlanta prior to burning the city.

    "Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen."
    Albert Einstein

    Romney campaign: "We're not going to let our campaign be ruled by fact-checkers,"

    Lindsey Graham: “We’re not generating enough angry white guys to stay in business for the long term.”

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