ReplyWas there a question in that?
Regular Guest
You buy a Carrier, Trane, York, etc. Same manufacture makes the furnace, condenser, coils, air handlers, thermostat, etc. Maybe the filter, ERV, humidifier are different, but all OEM something.
In a hot water system you have a boiler, chiller, fan coils, pumps, valves, hydraulic separators, manifolds, and storage tank all made by separate companies. And the controls can be a nightmare. Many of the companies are small, foreign, and/or the contractors that work with them are commercial.
If the house is where electricity is cheap and gas/propane/oil are expensive, getting a heat pump system doubles the complexity and limits the choices, especially for chillers.
However, our house is in an expensive electric, average gas environment. And a combination of outdoor reset on the modulating boiler, load reset on the modulating chiller, Taco's variable speed delta T circulators, and Honeywell's T7351 thermostat may pull this off. Many have restrictions that have to be designed for, such as maximum temps in a fan coil blower and minimum water flows in a boiler or chiller.
Regular Guest
Was there a question in that?
Regular Guest
No...just some frustration offered for comment. You have to be magician to get the suppliers and contractors organized to pull this off. It would be so much easier if it was a turn key system with contractors that didn't have to be integrators also.Originally Posted by commerce48
Professional Member
Sounds like you havent found a good contractor who knows how and what to integrate. You should be able to tell them what you want and they can come up with a good solution for you, I agree that there are many different manufacturers involved in something like this. When I install a boiler I usually have to call 5 or 6 different suppliers to get everything I need to do the job, between the piping, controls, pumps, and all the accesories.
I think it just takes alot of expertise on different levels and it is hard for on manufacturer to take it all on.
Regular Guest
Getting a heat pump system doubles the complexity?
Regular Guest
It does if the heat pump is a reverse cycle chiller with a hydraulic separator between the supply and delivery, delta-T circulation pumps, and storage tank. If the pumps are set to maintain an 8F temp rise, how do you change them to a 15F temp drop?
Regular Guest
David - You are out of control.
Regular Guest
Not really. Just trying to make the pieces work together...for a price. It is easy to spend 2x the cost of a furnace/DX system on a hot/cold water system. One of the reasons it that furnace/DX systems are only sold as assemblies, buying virtually all the major pieces from a single manufacturer. That companies engineers and marketing department or marketing department and engineers made decisions to bring things in at a price point. They stay within conventions that ensure a large number of technicians are able to work on their systems.
Some marketing/engineering decisions: Carrier made a large number of their systems qualify for federal/state/utility rebates where other manufacturers didn't; Nordyne brought a VRV compressor 4 years ahead of its competition in spite of higher prices and specialized technician training.
With hot/cold water those pieces are from diverse vendors and require lots of configuration. In order to make it work for a price close to a high end furnace/DX system and remain maintainable the technologies need to be readily available. It looks like that should be possible. Maybe.
God Speed, Jim. We'll miss you - 2-26-23
Well. If you weren't trying to reinvent the wheel. It would be much easier.
You are still trying to make a modern Edsel.
Regular Guest
An Edsel is anything with a Copeland Ultra Scroll. I think of this more like Enzo building the first Ferrari.
[IMG]http://3.bp.********.com/_vajpNm8m2x8/SCXW43TgwsI/AAAAAAAAANk/bETGtqiu4o0/s400/1947_ferrari_125_s_2.jpg[/IMG]
God Speed, Jim. We'll miss you - 2-26-23
if you ever get anything installed remotely close to what your talking about. You will regret it.
Last edited by beenthere; 08-25-2010 at 08:51 PM.
Professional Member*
[QUOTE=beenthere;7642042]That's what I was thinking too.
Whoever does attempt this project will go bankrupt from 1000 callbacks and spending days on the phone answering questions instead of selling work. Then the next guy comes in to look and throws his hands up and walks away. Repeat the last sentence over and over and over...
How tall are you Private???!!!!
God Speed, Jim. We'll miss you - 2-26-23
If anyone does do this work. The waiver forms will take up 3 binders.
Regular Guest
From the standpoint of someone who does radiant heat, this is really pretty vanilla. The number of secondary circuits is small. It may even bypass a zoning controller; the boiler and chiller triggered by the temp in the hydraulic bypass. The temp sensors on the Taco setpoint circulators attaches to the outside of the pump. Pretty vanilla, this is what an injection pump or their i-valve do, although in this case it isn't mixing.
At this point all of the pumps save the chiller and boiler circulators are the same. Even those can be the same, with a different control module.
The boiler and chiller are off the shelf units. Compared to a split compressor, the chiller is self contained.
The use of four air handlers (back to four, story for another time) dramatically cuts the amount of ductwork. Using 4 air handlers rather than air side zoning removes a few capacity and duct sizing issues there. Even with their ICS, Carrier recommends oversizing the ducts on a zone system 25%. What does that do to throw and mixing?
Unlike a proprietary high end system, there isn't much in the way of complex electronics, although a good DDC system would have been easier. However, it put it way over budget.
As far as installers unable to support it, take the Carrier dealer who installed our system and maintained all of it for 10 years and the AC sporadically after that. This is one of the largest firms in the area, obviously over 23 years old, with their own fabrication shop.
They hopelessly screwed up the ductwork and didn't setup the equipment that well. In spite of repeated call backs they didn't identify or fix the problems. And they hid the bad work well enough that a dozen dealers quoting a new system didn't find the problems.
The guy who fixed the AC this year looked at it and said it needed a new accumulator. He replaced it, charged it, and it has been running better and quieter than it ever did. Of course, following this ad hoc education, we are much more sensitive to its weaknesses. As a technican, he and his staff are superb. However, he never met an appointment he wanted to keep.
We are still toying with radiators and mini-splits, or individual room fan coils. The latter is a problem because the fan coils standout a bit too much, although that may be the best system of all. The 2011 Carrier and Nordyne offerings also in the hunt. My guess is the gap between the the 4 alternatives is less than 20% in price; that is about the same spread as quotes for the same system from different dealers that most homeowners posting on here get.
Reminds me of Gavin MacLeod's Moriarty in Kelly's Heros.
Moriarty: suppose the bridge ain't there?
Oddball: [groans] Don't hit me with them negative waves so early in the morning. Think the bridge will be there and it will be there. It's a mother, beautiful bridge, and it's gonna be there. Ok?
Professional Member*
Still trying to keep this project below five figures? LOL!
How tall are you Private???!!!!
Regular Guest
Regular Guest
Pictures of what?
Regular Guest
Maybe you could give us a diagram of your system.
Professional Member
Seems like a pretty simple set up what you want, but it will require mechanical drawings and I would only do it on a time and material basis and you wouldnt be off the clock until it was running and passed all of the start up tests. This would easily be a 30k system probably more. It would be nice though, I like your ideas, but it will just not be in the ball park of a dx system at least double of what the high end is in the residential market. Might want to look at geothermal, they have water to water systems that come as package deals where they supply everything, and you can back it up with a good mod con boiler, couple it with there air handlers or unicos or whatever
Regular Guest
Geothermal, really ground source, has some problems. I didn't consider it as a water to water system, however it is primarily a well digging project which is VERY expensive in NJ and tears up a lot of lawn for the drilling equipment.
We are a dual system house. So in affect this system will possibly replace two furnaces and two condensers with a single boiler, single chiller, and 4 air handlers. The house requires all new second floor ductwork, and all new trunks and returns on the first floor. Using 4 air handlers instead of two furnaces will reduce the ducting significantly, both length and size. Both require new lines to be run to the attic; one a gas line and high and low pressure refrigerant, the other 8 Pex tubing lines, probably 3/4" and 1". Both require condensate lines.
The quotes for the two systems without significant ductwork were 65-95% of the number you mentioned. Not counting filters, humidifers, etc. The ductwork by itself has been estimated at 35-80% of the number you mentioned for the equipment. I'm guessing the 4 alternatives with the ductwork will all end up 115-150% of the number you mentioned.
Note, really none of the hardware quoted was what we wanted; Nordyne was closest but had no zoning; Carrier had zoning but lagged in other areas. For 2011 both should have the full package; service availability would give Carrier the edge.
However, the hot/cold water may really hold trump in performance here. Uncoupling the creating of heating and cooling from the distribution of heating and cooling is a big plus.
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