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  1. #66
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    Nov 2000
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    Quote Originally Posted by pageyjim View Post
    ADDRESSING YOUR NASTY COMMENT ON KENNEDY!
    Oh yeah. That was pretty rude of me. Sorry.
    Government is a disease...
    ...masquerading as its own cure…
    Ecclesiastes 10:2 NIV


  2. #67
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
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    N. E. Missouri
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    Quote Originally Posted by pageyjim View Post
    You are in fine form today.

    I wonder which way Reagan is "receiving" his just rewards from Satan today. Gives a whole new meaning to take one for the Gipper.
    I believe it's WIN one for the Gipper.

    Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

  3. #68
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
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    Canada
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tool-Slinger View Post
    No. The employer has customers too. Take my example: For whatever pittance I make, my main customer is being hurt by tax increases among other things. They have millions. I don't want them taxed more. They have already contracted a bit in this economy. So did I. And I pretty well gave my usual helper the boot, because I just don't have the money.

    It is much more dynamic, than just pitting employee against employer. If I understood your point correct. My customer is not really blowing money on fast cars and such, operationally, they are just fluctuating business size as is normal for a multi-million dollar corporation. And I am not jerking around the guy who works for me for my personal extravagance. I honestly just don't have the work there. I used to fill time with 'shop-work' stuff at my loss, but I cannot even do that anymore. Raise my taxes, expect even less.

    It has been debated that 'trickle-up economics' works. Okay. But it is absolutely proven that 'trickle down poverty' works. I can see it with my own eyes.
    OK let us try this a little more metaphorically. Read what I wrote with the employer being you and I and the worker in my example being the government. It might put a different slant on things when the tax break you want (to buy all those fast cars and stuff) puts your country deeper in debt.

  4. #69
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Kaufman county, Texas
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    10,486
    Quote Originally Posted by printer2 View Post
    OK let us try this a little more metaphorically. Read what I wrote with the employer being you and I and the worker in my example being the government. It might put a different slant on things when the tax break you want (to buy all those fast cars and stuff) puts your country deeper in debt.
    Sorry Printer, I am just having trouble following the parable here.

    But I think I understand your basic concept that reduced % taxes is an expense because it nets the feds less revenue. I understand that concept well. All other things being equal, that is true. More taxes = more money for the feds.

    Let me try this explanation: I see reduced taxes as an investment. Sort of a stimulus. It creates an environment which promotes hiring, therefore more employed people to pay taxes instead of sucking off welfare. Plus they have money to spend, which further fuels business profit and further promotes more hiring in a gleeful upward spiral of economic prosperity. All the while the feds collect more taxes because the tax base is much increased... albeit the tax % rate is lessened. Less taxes = more money for the feds.

    Obviously both concepts are nutty if carried too far. Of course I don't know where the perfect 'balance point' is, I am simply of the very strong opinion that we are currently way over-taxed.
    "You boys are really making this thing harder than it has to be". Me

    "I say we just nuke them from space, that is the only way to be sure". Winch from ALIENS, forgot her name.

    Service calls submitted after 3PM will be posted the next business day.

    I give free estimates [Wild Ass Guesses] over the phone.

    My front door is locked. For your personal protection.

  5. #70
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    Feb 2009
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tool-Slinger View Post
    Sorry Printer, I am just having trouble following the parable here.

    But I think I understand your basic concept that reduced % taxes is an expense because it nets the feds less revenue. I understand that concept well. All other things being equal, that is true. More taxes = more money for the feds.

    Let me try this explanation: I see reduced taxes as an investment. Sort of a stimulus. It creates an environment which promotes hiring, therefore more employed people to pay taxes instead of sucking off welfare. Plus they have money to spend, which further fuels business profit and further promotes more hiring in a gleeful upward spiral of economic prosperity. All the while the feds collect more taxes because the tax base is much increased... albeit the tax % rate is lessened. Less taxes = more money for the feds.

    Obviously both concepts are nutty if carried too far. Of course I don't know where the perfect 'balance point' is, I am simply of the very strong opinion that we are currently way over-taxed.
    I understand the concept you are talking about. But over the years I have always seen the economic growth caused by government stimulus to be paralleled with an increase in government (the taxpayers) debt. It seems the increase in economic activity never seems to reduce the amount we collectively owe.

    I am wondering if we just bite the bullet and the government does not artificially stimulate the economy maybe in the long term we will be better off. Everybody complains of government interference in the economy until they want the government to pony up and supply the money to get things going.

    Now if you let business know they will have to act conservatively, and they will have to put some money aside to weather out the downturns maybe we will have healthier companies. You may not have the growth you would get when they are free to roll the die with the government (the taxpayers) pick up the tab when times are tougher. We might end up with healthier companies that can weather the downturns better which would then make the downturns less severe.

  6. #71
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    Feb 2009
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    Canada
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tool-Slinger View Post
    I am simply of the very strong opinion that we are currently way over-taxed.
    We only feel we are overtaxed because we have grown accustom to having a high standard of living. I compare our lives now to when I grew up in the 60's and there is no comparison. We have so much more but our cities are crumbling around us. Seems strange does it not?

    Our parents may have saved up for that one big trip back to the old country or to some sunny exotic location. Us we think we should be able to get away once a year. Two hundred dollar pairs of sneakers, now come on. As a society we are spoiled and at some time we are going to have to pay for it.

  7. #72
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    Apr 2007
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    Kaufman county, Texas
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    Quote Originally Posted by printer2 View Post
    I understand the concept you are talking about. But over the years I have always seen the economic growth caused by government stimulus to be paralleled with an increase in government (the taxpayers) debt. It seems the increase in economic activity never seems to reduce the amount we collectively owe.

    I am wondering if we just bite the bullet and the government does not artificially stimulate the economy maybe in the long term we will be better off. Everybody complains of government interference in the economy until they want the government to pony up and supply the money to get things going.

    Now if you let business know they will have to act conservatively, and they will have to put some money aside to weather out the downturns maybe we will have healthier companies. You may not have the growth you would get when they are free to roll the die with the government (the taxpayers) pick up the tab when times are tougher. We might end up with healthier companies that can weather the downturns better which would then make the downturns less severe.
    Yes, getting off the income tax subject, but I was shocked at the companies dependency on credit in late 07. That is indeed a problem, and seems like a silly one to me. Don't know how to fix it.

    In the US, much of our problem with government debt could be solved by reigning in foolish spending. But it just seems to be a political impossibility decade after decade.

    I am wondering if we just bite the bullet and the government does not artificially stimulate the economy maybe in the long term we will be better off.

    Me too, I think so.... Much of our problems are also consumers living the lifestyle of the rich and famous on a income of joe the plumber. Folks need to realize that if they live on the edge the rest of taxpayers [via fed] cannot come wipe their bottoms for them. When one is not subject to easy bailout, one tends to be more responsible. Your previous point about businesses credit is the same thing applied on a corporate scale, conceptually.

    Obama should hire us for his new economic team!!!! Great exchange of ideas!
    "You boys are really making this thing harder than it has to be". Me

    "I say we just nuke them from space, that is the only way to be sure". Winch from ALIENS, forgot her name.

    Service calls submitted after 3PM will be posted the next business day.

    I give free estimates [Wild Ass Guesses] over the phone.

    My front door is locked. For your personal protection.

  8. #73
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Kaufman county, Texas
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    Thumbs up Great minds think alike.

    I already agreed with you, was typing my last reply while you posted I guess.

    I still think we are way over-taxed, but also think the feds are way over-spending on BS stuff. If we can get the rascals to reduce spending, it is then much easier to justify tax decreases I guess.

    In the long run, probably better off to just reduce wasteful spending.

    Short term, in our current economic crisis, everybody is in panic-mode and nobody really knows what is correct. Delicate situation now, if we collectively keep screwing up we are going to end up in a potato famine or something similar. Or like DeltaT said,... riots.
    "You boys are really making this thing harder than it has to be". Me

    "I say we just nuke them from space, that is the only way to be sure". Winch from ALIENS, forgot her name.

    Service calls submitted after 3PM will be posted the next business day.

    I give free estimates [Wild Ass Guesses] over the phone.

    My front door is locked. For your personal protection.

  9. #74
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    6,876
    In Europe they had gone the riot route, don't even want to see you guys start getting that in your heads. You can be a passionate bunch when you set your minds to it. I am sure whoever is in government they weigh the amount of unrest their actions would cause and take the easy way out. Eventually the problem will be resolved, not because of a courageous politician but because external forces will demand it.


    I have to hand part of my views on government and finances are the result of a Liberal finance minister that we who later became out Prime Minister. He did cause us some hardship over the years but it put us on a good footing and because of it this downturn was not as painful to us as it was to you. To put things in perspective before we got our financial act together they were calling our dollar the Peso of the north. Our dollar dropped down to a low of $0.637 US and now sits around $0.95 today.

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