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  1. #1
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Houston Texas
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    6,316
    This is not a question to start a war over which candidate or party you support so don't go there. I am not asking this in the ARP section because I know how everybody there feels no undecided there. In fact there we are all idealogs we vote along the lines of our convictions mostly social and philosophical in nature.

    This questions to you that have not decided yet or have just decided for whom to vote. Why did you wait this long and how is it you didn't know six months or eight months back.

    President Bush is who he is no matter what he says now or his supporters or pundits say he is not going to be someone else come January.
    The same thing goes for kerry he is what and who he is; he has been that same basic person that he was before Nam directly after Nam and through out his political career.
    President Bush is a devoted Christian with a strong sense of what is right and wrong. For whatever reason he or you believe he took us to war in Iraq and Afghanistan. He feels that reducing taxes across the board rich poor and middle class will stimulate our economy.
    Kerry on the other hand has complete opposite beliefs wants to tax everyone especially the rich and discriminate those funds to everyone and take care of everyone from cradle to grave. He hates the military and the industrial complex that supports it.
    It is probably easy to tell where I lean but basically this is who these two men are and they will not change regardless of what either one says during the campaign.
    So if you agree with this assessment of the two men or not what ever your take on them is they are who they are. So how can someone not have made up his or her mind yet?
    So please lets not go off on and start a shouting match over whom these men are; that is and can be done in the ARP section.

  2. #2
    Classical, I applaud you for your sensetivity in wording the question.

    I hope others will award you the same respect and consideration.

    The reason I believe some wait is they are not believing the "System" works.
    They dont believe in America any longer.
    And they have no clue what to do about it. So they have lost heart. They are now despondant. Inefectual.

    It does not mean they are useless.
    It does not mean they are spineless.


    Oh yes, they WILL do something. They will gripe.
    They will tell tales.
    They will sling mud.
    They will get mad.
    They will engage themselves in worthless never ending discussions.


    Who are we talking about here? The un-decided.

  3. #3
    I'm guessing by your question that your fishing for an unbias answer, well it's not that simple. I am completely undicided, as i was last election. I know you remember that one....Where the state of Florida decided for us? After 30 years as a registered voter, i am touting a "none of the above" ballot.

    I've come to the conclusion that it makes no difference who you vote for, corprate america will do as it pleases. You have no voice in governmaent and never did have, so why take an interest now?

    Being a greedy SOB, i usually go with the guy that will make me the most money, like Clinton did. Either candidate could cut or even eliminate taxes and they still would not undo the damage of the last four years.

    Niether candidate can help me or you at this point. I truly believe we could do no worse if we out sourced our president to pakistan or india and had to pay 20.00 a minute for decisions. JMHO.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    Chicago, N/W burbs
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    8,004
    shouldn't this be in ARP?
    R2B4BTU

  5. #5
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Houston Texas
    Posts
    6,316
    No Otto the people that go to ARP have their minds made-up read the post.
    People that are undecided do not go to ARP because it is very hostile and emotional there.
    What I want to know is why people haven't made up their minds yet. For me I don't see how at this juncture in the process your mind can't be made up.
    However it obvious from polls and the fact that we are having debates this late in the game a significant number of people in this country have not decided which way they will vote.
    I would like to understand the dynamics of this because I just don't and I am a notorious procrastinator.

    No8No3 answered my question from his point of view as pessimistic as it is I can understand where he comes from. I have been there in the past at election time whishing I had vote of no confidence option. I think they have that in California or somewhere out west.

    Do the debates have an affect on you will they or have they changed your mind in regard to either man.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Posts
    9,871

    Not to be insensitive

    But the masses who are undecided are the ones who expect others to make up their minds for them. It takes genuine quality time to research and make conclusions for ones own self. You can tell by the majority of posts on the ARP that nothing more than surface level media hype drive the great mass of unlearned in any one direction. BTW Classical, I do agree with your assesment of candidates.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Hell Hole Swamp
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    4,180
    At this point, in this election, if you are undecided you obviously have no clue where you stand politicly, the differences in the 2 candidates is tremendous, I would think most of the undecideds are basically uninterested in politics and dont pay enough attention to have an informed opinion.

  8. #8
    I always make a big deal about showing respect ...but I guess this should just be dropped.

    If this was in ARP, the responces would not be as respectful as they have been up to now.

    ARP, as you well know, is where the gloves are taken off. It's the closest we get to haing knock down drag outs.


    One of the guys posting a responce in ARP one night ... about 2:30 in the morning ... after much consumption of brew ... posted some things that in my study of anatomy are not biologically possible.
    A few guys got to read his post before BOSS deleted it.

    When the sun rose, this guy got back online and was greeted with plenty of hoots and hollars.

    He promptly began apologising for whatever he had said the night before.
    He claimed even his dog was mad at him for last night.


    What he wrote though, was a deep heart felt things though.
    I could picture myself getting so mad that I would say something just like that to someone.
    And if I did it online here, it would be promptly deleted, of couse.

    But what we do and say when we're mad ... does that make anyone else a better person?
    Getting it offour chest ... does this make us better people ourselves?


    There's an old saying that it's better to be silent and thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt.

    Just because someone claims to be un-decided does not make them a fool. Necessarily.
    Like I wrote earlier, it means they are not buying into the system of how our government presently operates.
    And that is their perogitive.
    They are free to believe a lie, if they so choose.
    And along with the freedom of speech, they can also spread the lies they embrace to all other Amercians.

    And yes, they can even come right here and make claims that unless we follow after their ways ... we are a bunch of lost sheep who are easily led astray.



    Theirs is not a lack of education or intellect. Their decisions are based mainly upon the heart.
    So intellectual debate will NOT bring them into the understanding that what they lay claim to is wrong.


    Usually the folks who have a problem with authority also have other serious issues.
    And they are not going to be easily swayed over to the truth.

    Because this is a free country, we have this type of belief system.
    It is even classified as a religion. Seriously.
    And this religion of theirs is free to practice it's tenants just like Americans used to practice any religion ever allowed here.

    Only thing is, the practice of this religion is actually the cause of the downfall of our great Nation!
    And yes, that means that those who practice this religion are the cause of our Country's falling!



    Out in front of any burning building, there may be twenty who are fighting against the fire.
    While standing behind them, at a safe distance, there may be hundreds who are not trained to become involved!
    They are spectators.
    They love a good show.
    They like the "entertainment value" of the fire.
    It gives them a high just to watch things burn.


    In my opinion, there is no difference between the spectators who watch a fire burn and who do nothing about it .... and those whose religion say they should not become invloved in the daily operations of our Nation.


    In my opinion, neither should say a single word when things dont go their way. Cause they didnt lift a single hand in stopping it while they had their chance!

  9. #9
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Houston Texas
    Posts
    6,316
    UH Rob DUH I knew you did.My liitle faces just won't work!!

    Swampfox don't you think if they are that disinterested they probably won't vote. If the are that uninfiormed should they vote or be allowed to vote.

  10. #10
    I cant see the rational that says one has to be politicly inept to be undecided. I also have never understood the concept of party affiliation as it equates to where one stands on issues. I have for the most part voted democrat in the past, but dont believe in some of the more liberal views of the party. I dont think one should be branded for certain ideologies because of party affiliations.

    I dont think the candidates are that far apart on issues, They seem to want the same results, they just have a huge disparity on the way to achieve it.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Lenexa, KS
    Posts
    433
    I think it's because the modern day political system is not one of values, it's one of electability.

    I don't think that John Kerry was the best choice the Democrats could have made as far as selecting a Democratic candidate... but he is the most electable. (Best debater, tall stature, military background, etc.) However, Kerry's voting record doesn't indicate strong support or opposition to many of the hot topics American's look for when deciding upon a candidate.

    The same goes for Bush. He was selected as the Republican candidate in 2000 because of his last name, not values. The Bush's are to the Republicans as the Kennedys or Clintons are to the Democrats... nothing more than a family legacy that just happens to garner millions of votes. How convenient.

    I remember thinking in 2000... jeez these candidates suck. Neither one could speak well, neither one would hammer out issues, they would just say whatever the public wanted them to say. I think the debating this year has been much more aggressive and issues have come out, but I have still yet to see an advertisement that talks about issues rather than act as a beauty contest for either candidate.

    I think that's why so many people are undecided. The parties are so concerned with getting THEIR candidate in office that they are exploring every means possible of getting them elected and not telling the people what the issues are. Unless you are inquisitive enough to go out and grab voting records, public records, perhaps visit their websites, etc., nothing you get from being a normal, everyday citizen is going to be focused on issues... it's going to be focused on, “hey look at me I'd make a good president.”

    I could see where those people who are not that inquisitive could be left wondering. I don’t like it, I think you should, as a responsible voter and citizen, critically think about each candidate and his issues, but, let’s face it, so many in our society have to be spoon-fed information because they are either too lazy to look it up, or simply don’t care.

    Just my observation and opinion.
    "We are what we repeatedly do.
    Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit."
    -Aristotle

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    12,077
    I was undecided until last night. The debate last night convinced me.

    Jobs, economy and our financial well being, and our debt. I do not understand why the blame must somehow be the republican party or the democratic party that we have lost jobs, were in debt. The reason is simple.

    A bunch of people that want to kill us, and got started on 9/11.

    It has disrupted us immensely as a country, as an economy. I did not see GW blame anyone but the one's responsible. I seen Kerry blame Bush. Common sense tells anyone that the conditions we are in right now, no man, from either party could have seen coming, nor fix it quickly. I felt Kerry was grandstanding and using the reason that the way Bush had been president is the reason were still all so f'ed up. I don't think it was anyone's fault on our side.

    I thought all the republican talk about the voting record was just talk and rhetoric and what not by the Bush campaign till last night. After the debate, since Kerry's voting record came up quite a bit, I went to that fact check .com thing. That dude is lying through his teeth just to get votes.

    A make no mistake about one thing that hit me like a ton of bricks. The Sub Chapter S corporation tax entity for small business people will be changed immensely under Kerry.

    You all might want to look at that. His plan will definately hurt Sub S corporations. The reason you all might want to look at that is because I have been told that most HVAC and R contractors are set up this way. I am. I'd be nuts not to be. It's a huge advantage for me to be a Sub S than any other. And to most in this trade who are owners. The more taxes a contractor has to pay gives him more obstacles to grow. Growth means jobs.

    He thinks that if the majortiy of business owners pay more taxes that it will help growth. How? Contractors, small business owners of any type, are having serious problems now, how the hell is more taxes going to help. I don't think he understands at all. I don't think he gets how his plan is going to work.

    He wants Uncle Sam to be your health care provider. Listen. I have been to the hospital a million times when I was in the army. Broke my foot, arm, you name it. From mostly horsing around. The health care at a government run facility sucks. You do not want the government dealing with your health. Even if they give it to you free.

    Bush is George W Bush. Take it or leave it. I see things as he described last night as he sees them. Right now, I want that guy in charge. Maybe in the future he is not the most ideal cadidate. He certainly is not my dream of a cadidate. But from what I seen, and how I saw it at the end of the debate, I was for Bush.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Posts
    5,773
    It's about time you came around, Dow!

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