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  1. #14
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    manitowoc wisconsin
    Posts
    4,932
    Just to set the record straight-I think aluminum sucks & The stainless was a plus for munchkin!
    Take your time & do it right!

  2. #15
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Posts
    3,708
    I'm going to let other explain more on catching the water
    vapor before it head out the chimney.

    Water quality for me is not a issue with a new and closed
    system.If i start off with good water,then that water will
    be find for the life of the system.

    My issue is going to a old job and i dont know the history.
    If I get Black water coming out of the hose..I'm smiling.
    If I see brown water coming out of the hose I'm frowning.
    If i get clear water coming out of hose I'm walking.

    So the reason for the strainer is one of peace of mind that I wont have no big chunk of crap fouling my new pretty low
    mass boiler.

    As mention above by all the other pros here,there are other
    benerfits to these boiler then extracting heat from the
    chimney.

    My favorate is..no back pain from trying to get it set in
    place.


    [Edited by simpleman on 10-08-2004 at 07:11 AM]

  3. #16
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Posts
    1,996
    First, the Burnham Revolution is a cast iron boiler with built in injection and primamry/secondary piping built into the cabinet. Cast iron is easier to crack with extreme temp changes. The Revolution's piping config helps prevent that and also keep the return water temp above condensation temps so soot and rust do not form inside the heat exchanger. There is a condensation drain on the unit to trap any condensate dripping into the boiler from the flue pipe.

    A true condensing boiler saves a great deal of money where the return temps stay below 120. Most hydronic loops only drop 20 -30 on the return side, so if you need 160-180 water in your rads to keep an old drafty house or one with a small amount of radiators warm, you'll only see condensation on start-up and warmer temp months. Radiant floor systems that only require 100-120 supply use less BTU's to heat the water and get very cool returns to boot.

    Now none of the manufactures publish efficency @140 return, probably because the ratings drop to 85%, just like a cheaper CI boiler. The Dunkirk Quantum shows higher temp returns at just under 90% in a brochure chart. The high eff. boiler makers might claim you don't need p/s piping on
    a high temp system since there's no cast iron to shock, but most will recommend it in the install manual to make sure you have good flow through the small low mass boilers.

    Munckin and Ultra are good boilers but no one yet knows if one will last 15 years +. Of course parts are more expensive to replace on these models with their variable gas valves and induced blower motors. Hell, even CI boilers today are not the 600 lb monsters of 40 years ago, so I doubt anything lasts beyond 20 years nowadays.

    The built in outdoor reset of the Ultra or the Vision I package for the Munckin or a 3rd party one like Tekmar for any boiler, simply runs the boiler to a lower high temp limit based on the outdoor temp. A high temp system will cut out starting at 140-160 when it's just 40 outside and adjust up to 180-190 when it's down to 0. The few hundred in cost probably gets paid back in 2 or 3 years so it's a no-brainer to get.

  4. #17
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    New Hampshire
    Posts
    1,285

    Hey Johnsp

    Have you ever seen a residential boiler crack from thermal shock?

    You know, the systems from the 50s with the iron radiators and a tankless coil with a L 8124 aquastat relay set to 180/160.

    I don't see them, and I do warranty claims for the USA and Canada.

    BIG boilers are another story. I've seen a few split from thermal shock.

    Noel

  5. #18
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Posts
    1,996

    On thermal shock

    You're probably right Noel. Condensation though, does murder an oil fired boiler and a gas CI/steel unit will just slowly rust to death. I'm still not a believer in large mass CI boilers or modulation for high temp emmitters. A tekmar control can post purge some boiler heat into an indirect WH rather then see it go up the flue. Cast iron might give up its heat slower but it will still get sucked up the chimney. Condensating boilers still offer the cheapest venting solution with PVC. While most of the efficency numbers do not apply to non-radiant systems, I still see the simpler condensing boilers like Dunkirk's Quantum as the way to go.

  6. #19

    Present situation:

    Next time I talk with the guy I'm getting the ULTRA, provided the guy clearly firms up the price. The outdoor reset sounds vital for a condensing boiler. I'm a little unclear on the inclusion/exclusion of labor. (AT&T should make special basement useable cell phones for HVAC guys!)

    If things are significantly higher for the COMPLETE package then I'll save a few bucks and go with the Burnham Revolution.

    Wish I knew my average return temperature through the year.

    ------------------------------------------------------------

    Dunkirk remains out of the running because no experience usually equals trouble. Hate to be that early in the learning curve, after owning the first year of a certain car manufacturer; not again! Called a dozen HVAC guys but nobody was familiar with Dunkirk. Most said Burnham and nothing else.

    One thing I read in my reseach was something about radiators with in/out lines at the bottom are usually converted steam radiators and not efficient for hot water. I don't believe it; because though the radiators on the first floor are like that, the second floor radiators (same manufacture markings) have a top and bottom lines on the same side. It almost seems like the short ones flow width-wise and the thin tall ones flow top to bottom. Any thoughts?

  7. #20
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    Southern Tier, NY
    Posts
    6,066

    lotta Dunkirks here ....

    of course thry are made in NY .... you buy the same boiler, when you buy a carrier, hb smith, etc.....

  8. #21
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    11
    I've been looking over your discussion.

    I've been having trouble getting by Utica 100K boiler going this fall. A couple questions:

    What is the optimal output and input temp?

    Will my pressure stabilize after I vent all the remaining air out of the system? (It has been rising every time it runs, although the new expansion tank is set at 12psi.)


    Thanks

  9. #22
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    manitowoc wisconsin
    Posts
    4,932

    Re: lotta Dunkirks here ....

    Originally posted by slimwoodie
    of course thry are made in NY .... you buy the same boiler, when you buy a carrier, hb smith, etc.....
    I thought the carrier's were utica?They might have changed manufacturers it has been ages since I did anything with a carrier boiler.
    Take your time & do it right!

  10. #23
    Good question jf1234

    I'm not an HVAC guy but from what I've read the most important temperature is the return water and you want that as low as possible to gather heat from condensing the exhaust gases. The Ultra is 98% efficient when the return water is 90F or less. When the return temperature rises (say 130F) the heat from the exhaust is not as easily absorbed in pre-heating the water (efficiency drops to 95%) and when the return water is very hot (say 180F) the boiler does not condense the exhaust and that heat is lost out the pipe.

    As for the output water temperature, as hot as you need to put the BTU's in the radiators. Guess you want to keep this low (since the return is low) to avoid thermal shock.

    Next week, when I have the Ultra installed, I'll check the digital display and tell you what I get for return and output water temperatures.

    P.S. My HVAC guy got a strainer for the install. I'm guessing the TACO 0011 pump and other parts don't have one.

  11. #24
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Lancaster PA
    Posts
    66,803
    He was asking about a Utica boiler, not an Ultra.

    Congrats on the Ultra choice.
    Contractor locator map

    How-to-apply-for-Professional

    How many times must one fix something before it is fixed?

  12. #25
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    11
    FYI- I'm glad I had a pro. look at it yesterday. Alhough I figured out a few things, the repair guy was able to fix all things in the correct order. Also, he was able to inspect the whole system to make sure everything was ship-shape. Only $180.

    Good bargin, esp in Minnesota.

    Thanks

  13. #26
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    11
    FYI- I'm glad I had a pro. look at it yesterday. Alhough I figured out a few things, the repair guy was able to fix all things in the correct order. Also, he was able to inspect the whole system to make sure everything was ship-shape. Only $180.

    Good bargin, esp in Minnesota.

    Thanks

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