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  1. #1
    Does any of the blended gases we use today; 404, 408, 409, 401, 134, ... do they separate, FRACTIONATE, under any circumstances?

    I am posting this here to settle an arguement with a guy.


    Please feel free to list you experience or knowledge. Also, if there is a gas I left out ... include it too.



    Thanks.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Western New York
    Posts
    1,063
    Do you mean as they boil off in an evap (glide)?

    If there is a leak?

    How much is the bet?
    Experience is what you have an hour after you need it.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Orange County CA
    Posts
    1,084
    I've yet to see it after thousands of pounds of leaks and top-offs.
    In the begining of the new gas usage I was told of the horrors ahead ( sky is falling )....still waitng for an example.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Maryland's Eastern Shore
    Posts
    892
    Fractionation occurs mostly in zeotropic blends, it also occurs in azeotropic blends, such as R-410a, to a lesser extent.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Medford Oregon
    Posts
    807
    though the possibilty of fractionation exists, it is extremely unlikely that any problems will surface
    as R409 has the largest glide it would be the first
    to fractionate (again unlikely to affect you)

    years ago, I saw test results of simulating a 50%
    leak 5 times in a row. Perfomance changed 3% (MP39)

    I put MP39 in industrial buses, each bus leaked 20%
    (actually 10 to 25%) per month. After 10 tears of topping
    off - buses still doing well

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Medford Oregon
    Posts
    807
    Current ASHRE designations

    R-5?? 5 indentifies it Azeotrope
    Azeotrope - A mixture made up of two or more refrigerants
    with similar boiling points that act as a single fluid.
    The components of azeotropic mixtures will not separate
    under normal operating conditions and can be charged as
    a vapor or liquid.

    R-4?? 4 indentifies it as Zeotrope
    Zeotrope - A mixture made up of two or more refrigerants
    with different boiling points. Zeotropic mixtures are
    similar to near-azeotropic mixtures with the exception
    of having a temperature glide greater than 10° F. Zeotropic
    mixtures should be charged in the liquid state.

    therefore all R-4?? are zeotrope blends

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    East Stroudsburg, PA
    Posts
    13,215
    We had an HP80 rack blow half it's charge out the relief twice inside of a week, shortly after the conversion.

    It did fractionate, which was confirmed ith testing by National's lab.

    It was mean, nasty, and ugly once it came apart.

    It was the only time I've seen one do this.

    It's a long story, but it's on this forum somehere...

  8. #8
    I also think they act different, small leaks affect the system more than the old stuff and require more attention.
    So I say yes, what do I win?
    Hey cockroach, don't bug me! ©

    www.AskTheDiceman.com

    www.TheColdConspiracy.com

    www.Pennwood-HVAC.Com

    Bring Em Home....

  9. #9

    fractionation

    After losing and recharging literally thousands of pounds of gas (all types)in supermarket type systems (Hussman racks etc.) I've had no problems crop up. Keep your eye, closely, on the oil though. My local Copeland rep fessed up about the gas fractionation crisis and then went on to say most of what we were force fed about mixing oils is nonsense. I still won't mix POE with anything and I'm still a purist when it comes to any lubrication system, I rarely take chances . Copeland's 20, 30 & 40 hp discus don't need any encouragement to fail. These things should come with zippers.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    4,995

    Cool Aint that the truth!!!

    The discus is definitly a step backwards.
    Originally posted by healingair
    Copeland's 20, 30 & 40 hp discus don't need any encouragement to fail. These things should come with zippers.
    Your poor planning does not constitute an emergency on my part!!!!

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    4,995
    This is why you wont see R4?? in flooded chillers or any flooded evap aplications. The fractionization is alot more prevelent in the evap to the point the gasses actualy seperate out. In DX aplications it doesnt seem to be an issue.
    Your poor planning does not constitute an emergency on my part!!!!

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    Gold Coast of Connecticut
    Posts
    4,646
    I have yet to see it have any negative impact if it does occur.

    I will mix poe with any oil or gas and have never had a problem at all!

  13. #13
    Thank y'all very much. This pretty much settles it for that arguement.

    ....DiceMan.... ya know that hat I wore on my website? I'll send you one of those for your contribution.... if you still want a prize for helping ....

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