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  1. #1
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    What is the licensing requirement for R22 purchases in containers under 20 lbs?

    http://www.technicalchemical.com/refrigerants.htm

    Johnsen's makes R22 in 15 oz cans that uses the same fitting as R12 MVAC charging tap for use with home AC.

    After reading through the EPA website, end user can not purchase R22 at all with 609 and can only purchase R-12 in >20 lbs for use in MVAC application. 609 is apparently the only license allowed to purchase R-12 in <20 lbs and specifically prohibits purchase of HCFC-22 and declares HCFC-22 based air conditioners for mobile use(for example, passenger buses) as exception an exception of definition of MVAC.

    608 doesn't allow end user to purchase R12 in <20 lbs containers but doesn't address small containers of R22

    Could someone clarify if EPA 608 with type 2 endorsement meet the requirement?

    As for working on them, for MVAC like (i.e. R-12 AC system on a farm equipment), EPA site says either 608 type 2 or 609 will work, but recommends MVAC tailored 609 because they're more similar to MVAC.

    So, my interpretation is that if it's a John Deere, 609 is recommend but 608 type II is permissible. If it's a Buick, you must have 609. If I'm right then EPA defies common sense. If I'm not, I guess I'm just an idiot then
    Last edited by ICanHas; 08-05-2010 at 09:48 PM. Reason: oops

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by ICanHas View Post
    http://www.technicalchemical.com/refrigerants.htm

    Johnsen's makes R22 in 15 oz cans that uses the same fitting as R12 MVAC charging tap for use with home AC.

    After reading through the EPA website, end user can not purchase R22 at all with 609 and can only purchase R-12 in >20 lbs for use in stationary equipment.
    Not so. R12 may be purchase by a 609 certificate holder in small cans for automotive use. 608 holders can purchase R12 in larger cans for stationary equipment.


    Quote Originally Posted by ICanHas View Post
    609 is apparently the only license allowed to purchase R-12 in <20 lbs and specifically declares HCFC-22 based air conditioners for mobile use(for example, passenger buses) as exception.
    Yes. Now you are on the right track.

    Quote Originally Posted by ICanHas View Post
    608 doesn't allow end user to purchase R12 in <20 lbs containers but doesn't address small containers of R22.
    I have not seen small containers of R22 until that website. It's hard to imagine why a technician who services R22 equipment would need smaller cans of R22.

    I would point out that these sizes are sold "for commercial use." No doubt it is because the vehicles you mentioned that use R22 are indeed, commercial vehicles.

    Quote Originally Posted by ICanHas View Post
    Could someone clarify if EPA 608 with type 2 endorsement meet the requirement?
    I can't interpret statutes or give legal advice. However, the seller of refrigerant should know precisely what you need. With both certs, I have no trouble purchasing refrigerants.

    For most of us, we don't need to think about these issues.

    Perhaps someone else here will be able to tell you what you need to know, but as I said, the refrigerant seller is a good place to ask. I would expect that 608 certificate holders and purchase the smaller cans of R22, but I cannot say that is true and you cannot act on that speculation.
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  3. #3
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    I'm not even sure why the R-12 or the R-134a type puncture top cans are allowed, especially the R-12 type. The seal is entirely maintained by the valve assembly pressing up against the can top, which isn't very good. Once you tap the can, you better use the entire can right away or it will leak out in a few days.

    They could simply mandate camping propane can type fitting with dual schrader valves so the unused portion can be kept almost indefinitely(perhaps with LH thread?). The cost is higher, but if they use it for disposable propane cylinders, then it must not be a huge deal for much more valuable contents like R-12.

  4. #4
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    Sorry, But...

    I'd rather use 134a in a 12 ounce can (for Marine fridges). In many cases a small unit might only hold 8 ounces of gas. Much easier to have a couple 12 ounce cans than a 30 pound jug when you have to drag a 100 pounds of tools down a dock and load them on a boat (yacht).

    Also, I've used the screw top cans and they didn't leak with my valve (for weeks).

    Quote Originally Posted by ICanHas View Post
    I'm not even sure why the R-12 or the R-134a type puncture top cans are allowed, especially the R-12 type. The seal is entirely maintained by the valve assembly pressing up against the can top, which isn't very good. Once you tap the can, you better use the entire can right away or it will leak out in a few days.

    They could simply mandate camping propane can type fitting with dual schrader valves so the unused portion can be kept almost indefinitely(perhaps with LH thread?). The cost is higher, but if they use it for disposable propane cylinders, then it must not be a huge deal for much more valuable contents like R-12.
    Yes, I know I Shouldn't But I Just Can't Help Myself...

  5. #5
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    I think the price of r-12 is intended to make it a moot point.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Home&Marine View Post
    I'd rather use 134a in a 12 ounce can (for Marine fridges). In many cases a small unit might only hold 8 ounces of gas. Much easier to have a couple 12 ounce cans than a 30 pound jug when you have to drag a 100 pounds of tools down a dock and load them on a boat (yacht).

    Also, I've used the screw top cans and they didn't leak with my valve (for weeks).
    I have used the small 134a cans, too. They even sell them at United.

    I think that most of us have the jugs of 134a because it is widely used in refrigerators and reach-ins. Just more convenient for most of us.
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Home&Marine View Post
    I'd rather use 134a in a 12 ounce can (for Marine fridges). In many cases a small unit might only hold 8 ounces of gas. Much easier to have a couple 12 ounce cans than a 30 pound jug when you have to drag a 100 pounds of tools down a dock and load them on a boat (yacht).

    Also, I've used the screw top cans and they didn't leak with my valve (for weeks).
    The screw top is better than flat top. Aerosol can type or Schrader valve type is better in my opinion though, and the cost difference is negligible, especially so that the fitting is not married to that can if you need to remove it for whatever reason.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by sweat hog View Post
    I think the price of r-12 is intended to make it a moot point.
    There is no "intended" price, just market price.

    Based on a lie or two or million, but yes, that is the price of what was a perfectly good refrigerant.
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by ICanHas View Post
    The screw top is better than flat top. Aerosol can type or Schrader valve type is better in my opinion though, and the cost difference is negligible, especially so that the fitting is not married to that can if you need to remove it for whatever reason.
    You won't see a new can style for R12. When that can was designed, venting was a non-issue. We merely "made it" an issue.

    So, it is what it is.
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  10. #10
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    Well, I found R12 in newer style screw-top. Not common though.

    So, small cans are preferable for appliances and laboratory equipment holding as little as 6oz of refrigerant. Before the days of R134a refrigerators, these same applications used R12.

    A dorm fridge that maybe bought for $69 new may not be a candidate for repair, but laboratory equipment certain are. Does EPA still not allow techs to buy 12oz R12 with 608 for these applications??

  11. #11
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    My can tap is a Clamp style. Looks like a big pair of channel lock pliers , with a pierce needle and rubber o ring on the inside jaw. Grabs the can by the sides. Never leaks.

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