Results 1 to 11 of 11
  1. #1
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    New Jersey
    Posts
    1,309

    Carrier ICS Humidity Control: Is This Right?




    In all the posts here and all my reading I never saw this before. It is saying:

    1) Humidification has an outdoor reset with 9 levels

    2) It includes an economizer used to dehumidify under both heating and cooling, although it doesn't say if it has an outdoor humidity sensor to determine outdoor enthalpy.

    Is this correct? Is it buried somewhere in the documentation?
    Attached Images Attached Images   

  2. #2
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    SF Bay Area, CA
    Posts
    390
    Here's the Infinity manual

    Ventilation: pg 24
    Heating Humidity: pg 27
    Cooling Humidity: pg 28

    Ventilation needs one of their ERV / HRV connected.

    The dehumidify using ventilation is only available in heating mode.

    The outdoor sensor is temperature only so it sounds like it assumes winter outdoor RH will be lower than indoor RH for dehumidifying.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  3. #3
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    New Jersey
    Posts
    1,309
    Since an ERV preserves indoor humidity, how could one be used for dehumidification?

    That documentation was very sketch barely mentioning the outdoor reset without providing any useful information to understand the settings.

    The ventilator would require the ICS to drive it. How? Are their outputs on the furnace/air handler to drive an ERV?

    I'd really like to hear from someone who installed it and tested it to see it work.

    I don't see how it connects to a 58MVC or FE4. I don't see how an ERV which by definition tries to maintain latent heat can dehumidify. And there is one instance of an ERV that explicitly has a cooling/dehumidify function, and it has a switch to turn of the ERV wheel which the Carrier units don't seem to have.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    SF Bay Area, CA
    Posts
    390
    It connects through a NIM (Network Interface Module) which connects to the furnace ABCD wires.

    Why are you stuck on the ERV. They also have HRV which don't maintain humidity.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  5. #5
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    New Jersey
    Posts
    1,309
    Quote Originally Posted by drewski11 View Post
    It connects through a NIM (Network Interface Module) which connects to the furnace ABCD wires.

    Why are you stuck on the ERV. They also have HRV which don't maintain humidity.
    While that would be the case, an ERV's humidity maintenance can be a benefit. Carrier's recommendation is for its ERV is into climates much further north than normally recommended.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    115
    So you need the NIM even with Carrier/Bryant ventilators to use them with Infinity/Evolution controllers?
    That opens up a lot more options to use 3rd party ventilators if you don't like the Carrier features or pricing.
    Anyone know if they are working on new communicating ventilators to plug and play with the Infinity controller?

  7. #7
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    New Jersey
    Posts
    1,309
    Apparently NIM or Damper Controller. The Damper Controller comes with connections for 4 dampers, 4 sensors, the ventilator, a connection to the furnace or air handler, and a connection to daisy chain a second damper controller.

    It should be very interesting to see what the next generation brings. Rumors have a variable speed scroll compressor with electronic expansion valve and modulating furnace that goes down to 25%. It would be interesting to see the outdoor sensor gain a humidity sensor and could their be some form of reheat giving dehumidification in the 50-75F temperature range? Apparently it already has some support for a hybrid water coil in the air handler; could it get a more complete boiler interface where it is a ware of the LWT?

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Rochester NY
    Posts
    4,702
    Quote Originally Posted by Rabbler View Post
    So you need the NIM even with Carrier/Bryant ventilators to use them with Infinity/Evolution controllers?
    That opens up a lot more options to use 3rd party ventilators if you don't like the Carrier features or pricing.
    Anyone know if they are working on new communicating ventilators to plug and play with the Infinity controller?
    I don't think you can use off brand. I wasn't going to experiment so used separate cntl strat on job w 2 infin hh and 2ervs.

    David, swap cores seasonally if you want erv for summer and hrv for winter. Doubt you'll get that tight.

    And lwt isn't the issue as I see it. Boiler will deliver temp set by reset, so lwt drops, mod con will ramp up to maintain. Need to have boiler know what stat wants, communicate with ah and come up with appropriate temps and flows. Just like refrigeration works on these vs mini split heat pumps.
    Which makes more sense to you?
    CONSERVATION - turning your thermostat back and being uncomfortable. Maybe saving 5-10%
    ENERGY EFFICIENCY - leaving your thermostat where everyone is comfortable. Saving 30-70%

    DO THE NUMBERS! Step on a HOMESCALE.
    What is comfort? Well, it AIN'T just TEMPERATURE!

    Energy Obese? An audit is the next step - go to BPI.org, or RESNET, and find an auditor near you.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    New Jersey
    Posts
    1,309
    The outdoor reset is blind to demand and in many ways more accurate. The only way the controls would do better is if they knew outside temp/enthalpy and did the outdoor reset themselves or for a severe ramp.

    The chillers have a feedback loop on EWT if they have modulation. I'd imagine the modulating compressors could be using the LAT against a setpoint, and may vary that setpoint by the ramp and the outdoor temp. However, for cooling outdoor temp is a weak indicator during daylight hours because of the huge role of radiant heat.

    The MVC doesn't seem to have a broad range of temp rise. If the air is 30-40%RH, the system could maintain a 15F rise. If it gets dry, not so. However, if the system varys blower speed to maintain temp rise, does it drop it to 800-900cfm on an 80mbtu model if the air is humidified?

  10. #10
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    SF Bay Area, CA
    Posts
    390
    Quote Originally Posted by tedkidd View Post
    I don't think you can use off brand. I wasn't going to experiment so used separate cntl strat on job w 2 infin hh and 2ervs.
    this post implies you may be able to use Venmar ERV / HRV directly
    http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=117744

  11. #11
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    New Jersey
    Posts
    1,309
    In the USA, Venmar residential is sold under the Broan/Nutone brand: http://broan.com/display/router.asp?ProductID=2183

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Comfortech Show Promo Image

Related Forums

Plumbing Talks | Contractor Magazine
Forums | Electrical Construction & Maintenance (EC&M) Magazine
Comfortech365 Virtual Event