New Zoned System Trouble - Page 3
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  1. #27
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    64

    Smile

    Mark,

    Thank you, that would be great. I truly believe the group I am working with will come through. I just need them to step back and start from the begining again. I am sure the fix is a simple one.

    IF you can find the name, I will give them a call. Spending a little more now, for thier opinion will pay off in the long run.

    Tom

  2. #28
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    64

    Zone troubles again

    OK guys, you came through for me last time so I am looking for your feedback once again.

    Now that we have turned the corner towards Fall here in DFW the problem we are now dealing with is humidity. 55%-65% day in and day out. While temp. outside are still pushing 90 and we have the house zones all set at 76 we can not rid the home of the humidity.

    I feel this has to do with the 5 ton system not moving enough air? Also, early on, the company "by-passed" the units air sensor and started controling the zones by the thermostats. This is a multi-speed unit, total of three stages now (see string) so one would thing the system would be running in the first stage all most no stop to remove humidity?

    I am still looking for the name of a independent HVAC group in the DFW area that can help me make sense of every thing.

    Thanks to everyone here for helping level the playing field, I can only fear what is going to happen when I turn on the heat? I still think moving enough air is going to be the problem, by the company is saying I don't need the same amount of heat as I do air and the 5 ton will be fine?

    Thanks in advance for your feedback.

  3. #29
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Office and warehouse in both Crystal River & New Port Richey ,FL
    Posts
    18,836
    They may have the 5 and the 2 ton indoors fans ,running at the same time.

    More air flow ,equals less humidity removal,so that could be the problem.

    From more input:
    1.Post model numbers of all equipment.

    2.What size ducts come off the indoor units,supply and return?

    3.Return grille sizes ?

    4.Pictures would help a lot!!

    FYI--This is the strangest setup I've heard of,but doesn't mean it can't work.


    One problem is,you are now trying to push 7 tons of air thru a duct system designed for 5 tons.

  4. #30
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    64
    Dash,

    I will try and add pictures but was hoping there was enough in the prevoius threads. The only thing missing is the new 2 ton unit.

    It is an Amana High Eff. 14 (2 ton AC / no heat)

    They have this unit confg. as a third stage, it only kicks in when 2nd stage on the 5 ton has been running for 15 mins. or more.

    So, this time of year it never kicks in, that I know of.

    All the duct work was replaced during install and the system was designed around three zones using the 5 ton. The addtional 2 tons was added because the house was not cooling during the peak summmer months.

    I will try and add what you have asked for,

  5. #31
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Office and warehouse in both Crystal River & New Port Richey ,FL
    Posts
    18,836
    Does the fan of the 2 ton run all the time,or just on third stage?

    I must have missed all the duct sizes and model numbers.

  6. #32
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Wadsworth, OH
    Posts
    316

    Question

    Hello Tom,

    I agree that you should need less than the 5 ton capacity for heating...thats the norm in many parts of the country.

    Usually humidity removal is improved by lowering the cfm across the coil. The coil runs colder and air moves across it slower allowing for increased moisture removal onto the coil.

    Do you have a feel for what stage the cooling is running in most of the day?

    There are thermostats that control dehumudification by running the A/C with a lower blower speed. I don't know if your eguipment can make that happen but it "might" help.

    Usually undersized cooling systems do a good job of humidity removal becouse they have to run more to keep up. If the air flow across the coil is excessive that will greatly reduce moisture removal ability (latent heat removal).

    I hope that helps!

    Joe
    "When you perceive zoning not as a bandage but as an enhancement, you truly understand the dynamics and limitations of forced air heating and cooling"

  7. #33
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Office and warehouse in both Crystal River & New Port Richey ,FL
    Posts
    18,836
    Your 1st stage is low speed of the copeland scroll,does the fan run at low speed then,if not the above post explains why it can't dehumidify.


    You should have 3 stages of fan as well as cooling ,to dehumidify under all conditions.

  8. #34
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    64

    Hmm

    Regarding which speed the unit runs in.

    From what I can tell, the unit kicks into it's first stage (3-5 mins. max)and only runs for a short period of time. It does this multiple times each hour, I assume it is trying to meet the needs as each therm. calls for air.

    Could the unit be short cycling? The more it runs, through out the day, the higher the humidty in the house gets. Ther are days were it drives the humidity in the house well above the humidty levels out side!

  9. #35
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    64

    Red face

    To answer the question on the 2 ton fan, I can only say that the unit out side does not kick in at all unless I drive all 3 zone therm. down to 70 degrees.

    With this, I can get the humidity to decrease but then we chill our selves out of the house. As soon as we set it back to 76, the humidity starts climbing again...

  10. #36
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Office and warehouse in both Crystal River & New Port Richey ,FL
    Posts
    18,836
    If it only runs for 3-5 minutes at a time,it's not running long enough to get a cold enough coil to dehumidify.

    What about the fan speeds,we need your input to assist you.

  11. #37
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    659
    carestx,

    Man,,,,, Unless you have 2 x 12 walls and R40 in the attic, I don't see how they can make a 5 ton unit satisfy 32000 cubic feet of living area in Dallas Texas. If you have 2 x 4 walls and 10" of insullation in the attic, your probably going to need every bit of 8 tons capacity!

    You just cant cram that much insulation in a 2x4 wall. A 2x4 wall with bat fiberglass/cellulose insulation is only R12 or so.

    Quick check:
    Get the house as cold as you can then shut off the unit.
    Read the thermostat temperature. (average all the thermostat readings you have in the house) Wait 1 hour. Read the thermostat temperature. If it has increased more than 2.5 degrees,,,(again,, an average reading),,,,, your at least 3 tons short! It is very cloudy here today and you won't have some rooms being real radical in temperature shift due to sun light.

    Of course a good heat load calculation should be your next step but the "Quick check" should give you an idea of what your facing.

    Good Luck!!



    [Edited by honglo on 10-21-2004 at 03:08 PM]

  12. #38
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    64

    Thumbs up



    As far as I know, each unit has two fan speeds. I have no real way of telling what speed they are running in at any given time. Is there a way I can check? Plus, with the zone system, it seems to blow hard in the office zone for a min or so then it sounds like the by-pass kicks in or the dampers adjust the air flow.

    The units site outside my home office so I hear the 5 ton unit kick on and off each time. It runs for 3-5 mins. then shuts down. If you get a chance to read the entire thread, you will see the second 2 tons was added later. The original load calculation are in the thread also. The unit just kicked in @ 2:10 my time and just shut down @ 2:16

    The way the explained the extra unit was added to meet the demands of the zones during peak load. The 2 ton unit does not run on any set timer or pattern. I can onlyt get it to kick in by driving all the therms. down 6-10 degrees OR if its warm enough outside, by getting the main 5 ton to run in 2nd stage for more the 15 mins. (same result, differnt wording)

    No the house is not super insulated in fact the house was built in 1988. Prior to adding the addtional 2 tons, the company tried to adjust the load by blowing in an addtional 6" of insulation, then suggested I change out my windows.

    The insulation was OK (couldn't hurt) but spending more money on new windows?????

  13. #39
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    64

    Hmm Ran quick test

    OK,

    Here is the result of the quick test as outlined.

    Ran all three zones therms. down to 71. After 40 mins. best home would average was 74.3 degrees.

    Note: By running down the therms. this kicked in the addtional 2 ton unit for the whole 40 mins. = 7 ton total

    After 15 mins. = 76
    After 30 mins. = 76.3
    After 45 mins. = 76.6
    After 60 mins. = 77

    During 40 min. drive down, humidity droped 2-4% but now that unit is on normal cycle, humidity back up to 65%

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