New Zoned System Trouble

[carestx]

Anyone still out there?

[jramunni]

Tom,

What you are desribing presently is an issue of insufficient run time to dry out the house. This problem would be exasperated if you had a larger system (like an 8 ton). You need to have someone verify that the staging is functioning on both the A/C unit and the blower. The system needs to be operating at it's lowest capacity to lengthen run cycles.
There is a way to slow the blower down to its circulation mode speed which might help. If you want to try this, just simply remove the Y1 wire from the furnace control board. If there are two wires connected to the Y1 (YLO) terminal in the furnace, remove them from the terminal and connect them together with a wire nut. This will allow the A/C to run on low stage and the blower will run at its lowest cfm level.

Joe

[carestx]

Joe,

Thank you for the advice, but at this stage I do not want to attempt anything that my void my warrenty. The company I have has installed and AirAdvice unit in my home for the last two weeks and the reports on line show a consistent 55-65% humidity level.

You have been the only one who beleives the load calculation justify the 5 ton unit. How can that be? Is there a soild company in the Plano, TX area that knows what they are doing with a ZONE system. I really need to make this work.

I am getting no where with the group that installed, each time they show up, it is some poor service tech that does not know why he is here or what to do to correcct the problem. All they ever say is turn the therms down to 70 and leave them there??? This can't be the answer!

[dash]

Originally posted by carestx
Joe,

Thank you for the advice, but at this stage I do not want to attempt anything that my void my warrenty. The company I have has installed and AirAdvice unit in my home for the last two weeks and the reports on line show a consistent 55-65% humidity level.

You have been the only one who beleives the load calculation justify the 5 ton unit. How can that be? Is there a soild company in the Plano, TX area that knows what they are doing with a ZONE system. I really need to make this work.

I am getting no where with the group that installed, each time they show up, it is some poor service tech that does not know why he is here or what to do to correcct the problem. All they ever say is turn the therms down to 70 and leave them there??? This can't be the answer!

Hope you got a 10 year parts and labor warranty,the job has problems ,from what you have stated.

There is no way it could be right,again ,from what you have stated.

1.New 5 ton zoned duct system,then added 2 tons,to be delivered thru the 5 ton duct system.

2.Unlikely that it is getting the proper air flow,on each of the 3 stages.

3.No real solutions from the installing contractor.


Try Tempo Mechanical,972-579-2000, I know the guy that runs it,they can surly solve your problem,but it would be best to get the installing contractor back to solve it,as they should.

[Edited by dash on 10-22-2004 at 11:30 AM]

[carestx]

Dash,

Is the group you metioned more of a Eng. group, that is one that does not install or service systems. I am looking for a group that does HVAC Eng. / Design.

I would like to have the comapny that installed it correct the problem. I have all the manufactures warranties on the equip. Plus a 100% satisfaction or my money back from the installations group. What I want to do is start over from the begining, new load calculations, duct design and salvage what we can from the original install and I have made this request of the owner with no result.

This has been going on for 6 months! With the summer all but over in TX I need some resolution fast!

[pstu]

I came across this thread late, but we have something in common. Grew up in Dallas and have a 3430 sqft house in S. Texas now.

After reading the thread, you certainly have a design or installation problem with your main system. I cannot help you with that but may be able to recommend a couple of things which will not harm, and may help.

You state you have a humidity problem. Getting a Thermastor 86 pint/day dehumidifier brought my house by a full 10 percentage points of RH. You can add this and continue to negotiate with the original contractor, and they certainly will not object to you having a dehumidifier. My experience is the Thermastor shares humidity load with the AC, with a KWH measuring device attached it costs me about $20/mn worst case, and about $5 during the summer.

The dehumidifier will take on some of the latent load, unless I am badly mistaken that will free up your main AC to do more cooling. This is partially offset by the heat thrown off by the dehumidifier (anything that can draw 6.3 amps will generate some heat) but I believe the operating cost may be little or no higher than your AC alone.

Don't be overly fooled by the Thermastor claim that 100 pints/day will treat "up to 2500 sqft". This is no more legitimate than any other X/sqft rule of thumb. I am sure that any dehumidifier will help you out, be it rated at 86, or 100, or 150 pints/day. You could even try a $200 experiment and buy a 60 pint/day portable from a local store, I predict you will like the humidity removal but will soon lose patience with manually emptying the condensate reservoir.

Nobody has yet mentioned infiltration. I believe you would do well to have a whole house infiltration test, plus a duct leakage test. If you find any excessive leakage, well that is part of your problem and an opportunity for you to fix it. Again, any progress on this front will assist those poor guys who are trying to make your 5-ton AC adequate.

If you don't have radiant barrier in your attic, you should get it and expect about 10% overall energy savings. Your attic will be cooler, some rooms may be more comfortable, it may not solve your whole problem but it will definitely help some.

Hope this helps -- P. Student

[dash]

Originally posted by carestx
Dash,

Is the group you metioned more of a Eng. group, that is one that does not install or service systems. I am looking for a group that does HVAC Eng. / Design.

I would like to have the comapny that installed it correct the problem. I have all the manufactures warranties on the equip. Plus a 100% satisfaction or my money back from the installations group. What I want to do is start over from the begining, new load calculations, duct design and salvage what we can from the original install and I have made this request of the owner with no result.

This has been going on for 6 months! With the summer all but over in TX I need some resolution fast!

No they are a contracting firm,call and ask they may be able to refer you to a design company.

[carestx]

OK,

Company owner came out. Said he saw no condinsation on the coil at low speed (first stage)


This time he said it was a bad metering valve inside?

The tech. that showed up later with the parts said he replaced the orifice with an expantion valve. He says, the EV was made for the new 412 refrig.?

Could this have been the root of all my problems?

[beenthere]

A piston on a 2 stage unit would be a problem.
Using a r410a txv, on a r22 system will also cause trouble.

[dash]

Originally posted by carestx
OK,

Company owner came out. Said he saw no condinsation on the coil at low speed (first stage)


This time he said it was a bad metering valve inside?

The tech. that showed up later with the parts said he replaced the orifice with an expantion valve. He says, the EV was made for the new 412 refrig.?

Could this have been the root of all my problems?

A two speed without a TXV,made for R412,????

[carestx]

OK, I got it wrong. The unit uses 410 refrig.

And again, the tech. said he replaced the orifice???

[carestx]

What damage could have been done to the system using the orifice instead of the expantion valve?

Home just spiking back and forth between 60 and 70% humidity

[dash]

We need more infromation ,to provide anymore advice/suggestions,on your situation,IMO.

What do you mean by spiking,in minutes or hours?

[carestx]

Dash,

Here is the link to the AirAdvice system installed. Before they changed out the orifice, they said there was no condensation on the coil during first stage. W

ith expansion value humidity does drop when unit cycles but shoots right back up when it shuts down.

It has a 10% spike twice an hour High in the 68-70% range low in the 60-62% range.

Have had all the t-states (3 zones) set to 70 degrees for three days.....freezing us out of the house...

I am trying to figure out how to add a photo of the AirAdvice log. Will post when I figure it out.

Row that starts as 56 is the Low Humidity Mark for the day listed, then Average and High...Temp. is the next three numbers....

Monitor 8686 Particulates Carbon Monoxide Humidity Temperature VOC (ug/m3)
Weekday Low Avg High Low Avg High Low Avg High Low Avg High Low Avg High
10-21 3 14 69 0 0 1 56 62 67 72 75 76 775 1080 1387
10-22 0 11 58 0 0 0 61 65 68 73 74 76 726 1013 1279
10-23 0 15 89 0 0 1 45 61 74 66 74 77 725 1170 2140
10-24 0 7 68 0 0 0 50 56 67 68 70 75 591 745 1007
10-25 0 4 67 0 0 1 55 66 73 68 73 76 634 770 943
10-26 0 6 63 0 0 0 57 67 75 72 74 75 486 704 910
10-27 0 4 52 0 0 1 56 66 74 71 73 76 440 610

[Steve Wiggins]

carestx I wish I were a little closer to you. I am about 2.5 hrs away You keep asking for a consulting company (group) but what you really need is an individual person that actually knows what he is doing.

[carestx]

Steve,

I am trying to remain "neutral" in having the system evaluated. By using a Counsultant or Eng, firm, there is no chance their findings would be self serving. Does that make sense?

[Steve Wiggins]

Well anyway if you want a full report/load calc/design recommendations with pictures I can do that for you. I will post the pics here and then everyone can offer their input. Being far away I have no desire to contract with you to correct the problems so my evaluation would not be self serving.

Does the company that installed the system employ a state license holder and did he pull a city permit that passed a final inspection?

[dash]

Originally posted by dash
They may have the 5 and the 2 ton indoors fans ,running at the same time.

More air flow ,equals less humidity removal,so that could be the problem.

From more input:
1.Post model numbers of all equipment.

2.What size ducts come off the indoor units,supply and return?

3.Return grille sizes ?

4.Pictures would help a lot!!

FYI--This is the strangest setup I've heard of,but doesn't mean it can't work.


One problem is,you are now trying to push 7 tons of air thru a duct system designed for 5 tons.

More information ,like answers to the above questions and others ,is what I was thinking of.

[carestx]

They are state licensed and did pull a permit. It did not pass but the inspector whould not comment on the configuration/design, except state he has never seen anything like it.

It failed for little things lite the drains, duct straps and access to the unit.

The City has not been back out to reinspect.

More then willing to have you out and willing to cover your time if you think you might find something.

Tom Carey
972-612-8843

[carestx]

Dash,

Working on pictures, and will get any and all model #'s I can find. Will do my best on the grill/duct sizes...

TC/Dallas