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  1. #1

    10 Year Plan for Controls Advice

    I work for SRP in Arizona, we have 17 buildings and currently use Metasys PMI and Extended Architecture for our front end. We have some pnuematics, ASI VAV's, and 99% JCI end controllers. Management is trying to spend some $$$ and get us into the 20th century (pun intended), we have spent big bucks on a survey but I feel the contractor had an agenda from the beginning since he is also a vendor. We are getting steered towards Tridium systems. Has anyone here replaced Metasys with another controls system?

  2. #2
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Baton Rouge, Louisiana
    Posts
    3,949
    Deluxe see my other post here LOL.

    We are an ASI var not in your area, how many ASI Vav's do you have? What model are they? How many other controllers do you have? ASI just released their Tridium box a couple of weeks ago(rebadged). I'm currently working on a 10 school project changing out the old JCI Facilitator/Companion head end to start a mitigation path to ASI. I'm using the S4 N2 OPC Router http://joomla.thes4group.com/ with ASI Weblink as the front end. Unfortunately I do not know the ASI VAR in your area. Contact me by email(in my profile) and I will help you out anyway I can.
    Last edited by joey791; 07-19-2010 at 07:21 PM. Reason: edited for link spacing for it to work
    Quote Originally Posted by MatrixTransform View Post
    very soon it is you that will be pwned

  3. #3
    We have just under 2,000 VAV's, 200 of which are ASI. These are being replaced with JCI VMA's. We are re-thinking our entire BAS system, not just the vav controllers.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    2,459
    What protocol are the VMA's?

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Helena, Montana
    Posts
    2,155
    We removed the NCMs and utilitzed FX-60s to provide the front end in our "main" building. While there are still limitations for access to the progamming in the DX-9100s, overall it works very well.

    Next phase is to remove all of the DX-9100 and the VAV controllers. Nothing wrong with the devices, but customer service is the issue.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    2444 Washington Blvd, Suite 100 Ogden, UT
    Posts
    363
    Quote Originally Posted by BACnet View Post
    What protocol are the VMA's?
    VMAs use a unique variation of the N2 protocol that is only used by VMA devices.
    Steve Jones
    Managing Partner
    The S4 Group, Inc.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Northeast
    Posts
    357
    I work for an independent controls service and installation company. We used to be a JCI ABCS. We have worked with JCI since before Companion. I have taken the FX controller classes and the NAE class from JCI and Tridium certification from MOV. I have converted several NCMs to FX60s and I service several NAEs.

    I would recommend the the FX60 route to replace all your NCMs eventually. The Tridium controller will open you up to other vendors much easier than the JCI Extended Arch. The Tridium controller is much less expensive and more powerful than a NAE. The JCI course is good for getting started. The JCI Appliance allows the user to set up a simple building very easily. The Tridium Cert course does fill in a lot of holes in the background the JCI course does not have time to cover. We have also purchased a 3rd party graphics package from www.basgraphics.com

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    1,479

    FX replacing NAE/NC

    It works beautifully...but you must use the Johnson FX flavor of JACE to do it well (Im not 100% on anybody else's version of N2 yet)....and I believe there is a driver for the ASI controllers too.

    Be careful with CS objects and JCbasic on the NC...if you dont have the original files it can make it difficult to map all the required points and programming.

    UNDDL is your friend

  9. #9
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Baton Rouge, Louisiana
    Posts
    3,949
    Quote Originally Posted by deluxe68 View Post
    We are re-thinking our entire BAS system, not just the vav controllers.
    I understand that, but to make an INFORMED decision all info that is pertinent really helps on a suggestion.
    Quote Originally Posted by MatrixTransform View Post
    very soon it is you that will be pwned

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    2,459
    Quote Originally Posted by steves4 View Post
    VMAs use a unique variation of the N2 protocol that is only used by VMA devices.
    I thought that VMA's could come in other protocols though. Am I mistaken?

    This is a thread about upgrading a site on a 10 year plan. I would be remiss if I didn't point out that adding units from a dying proprietary protocol like N2 would be a very bad idea. Lon and BACnet will both be around in 10 years but N2 most certainly will not.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    2444 Washington Blvd, Suite 100 Ogden, UT
    Posts
    363
    Quote Originally Posted by BACnet View Post
    I thought that VMA's could come in other protocols though. Am I mistaken?

    This is a thread about upgrading a site on a 10 year plan. I would be remiss if I didn't point out that adding units from a dying proprietary protocol like N2 would be a very bad idea. Lon and BACnet will both be around in 10 years but N2 most certainly will not.
    There was amodel of the VMA that was LON based but the largest volume of installed base was N2. There is an equivalent product in the current BACnet product line.

    I totally agree that if you are doing a new installation I would not opt for a proprietary protocol whose manufacturer has moved on to other technologies. However, installing new N2 devices to replace failed devices, or utilizing legacy N2 device as part of a planned transition plan is a smart move that can save huge $$$ vs. ripping out the old stuff and starting over.
    Steve Jones
    Managing Partner
    The S4 Group, Inc.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    2,459
    We're in total agreement there. If this site must use a piecemeal approach there is certainly a financial reason to stay with the outdated protocol.

    But since this thread is about making the system useful 10 years from now I couldn't help but point out that N2 is the last thing he needs on site.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    2444 Washington Blvd, Suite 100 Ogden, UT
    Posts
    363
    Quote Originally Posted by deluxe68 View Post
    I work for SRP in Arizona, we have 17 buildings and currently use Metasys PMI and Extended Architecture for our front end. We have some pnuematics, ASI VAV's, and 99% JCI end controllers. Management is trying to spend some $$$ and get us into the 20th century (pun intended), we have spent big bucks on a survey but I feel the contractor had an agenda from the beginning since he is also a vendor. We are getting steered towards Tridium systems. Has anyone here replaced Metasys with another controls system?
    You might want to take a look at our S4 Open: OPC-N2 Router or S4 Open: BACnet-N2 Router as part of a transition strategy. Either product allows you to integrate into your legacy N2 bus and publish the points found to an open protocol (OPC or BACnet). Once that is accomplished you choose the HMI and supporting applications that best meet your current needs and set the stage for where you want to be 10 years from now. My contact info is in my profile if you would like more info, case studies, references, etc.

    You might want to check with ASI. I believe that they have a device that will publish their legacy systems to BACnet. The ASI dealers on the forum can probably give you better information on this.
    Steve Jones
    Managing Partner
    The S4 Group, Inc.

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