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  1. #40
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    Wasn't everybody from the Levi tribe expected to become a priest or rabbi?

    Things were different back then. Did they even have the concept of liciences? A licence now is just a form of registration and tax.
    If the superheat ain't right it ain't charged right.

  2. #41
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    arc8,
    the church in the apostles time was more losely organized and followed the example of Christ.
    Today we are looking at 2,000 years of change in the church. Today the church is fractured into many divisions of those that follow Martin Luther we have the Lutherans, followers of Calvin the Baptists, followers of Wesley the Methodists and so on. The church is fallen and fractured as a whole that is why the angel in Rev 18:2 cried babylon is fallen. GOD is calling his true followers out of all churches and pleading with them "come out of her my people" Rev 18:4. Revelation is mostly history but when it was given at the time of John it was prophecy but now 2,000 yrs later it is mostly history. History is prophecy fulfilled. God is shaking the church and calling his true followers back to the bible and true worship. Those that follow the call will compose the true church.

  3. #42
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    arc8,
    the church in the apostles time was more losely organized and followed the example of Christ.


    from others: "It had been predicted that John should make ready a people for the Lord. The Saviour declared John as the harbinger of the new dispensation, and that his ministry had virtually terminated "the law and the prophets," Luke 16:16, and commenced the gospel kingdom, Mark 1:1. The instruction given by John to those persons whom the Saviour chose to discipleship, plainly fulfilled those predictions, Acts 1:21. These disciples went forth by his authority to preach and baptize during the Saviour’s personal ministry; and after his resurrection, they were invested with authority to preach the gospel to all nations, baptizing those who acknowledge themselves willing disciples to his doctrines. On the day of Pentecost they became fully qualified, by the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, for rightly understanding and correctly executing their Lord’s will. It will be our pleasure to accompany them while in the discharge of their sacred trust, and to observe carefully for our guidance how they fulfilled their commission.

    my writ: the doctrines are the same now as it was 2000 years ago. why would the immutable God change his word and practice?

    from others [* Hierarchalists, with others, say, the New Testament presents no settled form of church government. But the Judean churches were considered as models by Paul, who praised the Thessalonians for following their example: nor were the customs of different people allowed to influence churches in different provinces, but the teachers of religion throughout the world were to follow Paul’s example. This model imitated, occasioned a harmony in practice for one hundred years. If there is no form, then the Scriptures cannot be a perfect rule of faith and practice; each province, town, or society, may legislate without giving offense to the King of Zion; and consequently every age, from new customs, might have a new form of church government. Yet Jesus Christ has forbidden any thing to be added to his word; and one feature of the man of sin is, that he should "change laws in God’s temple;" but every plant not of scriptural authority shall be taken away, and every innovator in Christ’s kingdom will meet with his displeasure. The unity enjoined, the discipline established, the example left, and the accountability of each servant for his conduct in the service of God, prove there is a settled law for our guidance. See Maclean on the Commission, and Glass’s King of Martyrs.]

    more writs: In giving an account to the emperor, Justin says, "I shall now lay before you the manner of dedicating ourselves to God, through Christ, upon our conversion; for should I omit this, I might not seem to deal sincerely in this account of our religion. As many as are persuaded and believe that those things which are taught by us are true, and do promise to live according to them, are directed first to pray, and ask God, with fasting, the forgiveness of their sins: and we also pray and fast together with them. Then we bring them to some place where there is water; and they are regenerated by the same way of regeneration by which we were regenerated: for they are washed in the name of the Father, &c. After he is baptized, and becomes one of us, we lead him to the congregation of the brethren, where with great fervency, we pour out our souls together in prayer, both for ourselves and for the person baptized, and for all other Christians throughout the world. Prayer being ended, we salute each other with a kiss. Bread, and a cup of wine and water, are then brought to the president or bishop, who offers up prayer and thanksgiving in the name of the Lord Jesus, the people concluding with a loud amen. The deacons distribute the elements to those who are present, and carry them afterwards to he absent members. [Wall’s Hist. of Infant Bap. p. 1, c. 2, ~ 3] This food we call the eucharist, of which none are allowed to be partakers, but such only are as true believers, and have been baptized in the laver of regeneration for the remission of sins, and live according to Christ’s precepts."+ On this statement Dr. Wall observes, this is the most ancient account of the way 0ś baptizing, next the Scriptures, and shows the plain and simple manner of administering it. The Christians of these times had lived, many of them at least, in the days of the apostles. [Wall’s Hist.]

    faith and practice hasn't change. why should it if Christ is the Head of the Church, not man.

    more writ: Tertullian was born of pagan parents at Carthage. He was brought up to the law. His learning was considerable, and his style of writing acquired him the title of the first of the Latin Fathers. He wrote an able and bold defense of the Christian religion. He was evidently a man of extraordinary genius: his piety was warm and vigorous, with some features of austerity; but a degree of superstition accompanying his profession, prevents our relying on his judgment. Tertullian’s writings prove, that he as a Baptist stood between contending parties; he explained duties to some, enforced them on others, while some of his instructions gave a check to the innovations of the times.

    His views of the ordinance were, that "those who are desirous to dip themselves holily in this water, must prepare themselves for it by fasting, by watchings, by prayer, and by sincere repentance for sin." [Dupin’s Eccl. Hist. 3d Cent., p. 80] And "that adults were the only proper subjects of baptism, because fasting, confession of sins, prayer, profession, renouncing the devil and his works, are required from the baptized." [De Baptismo, Bap. Mag., v. i, p. 210] "The soul is sanctified, not by washing, but by the answer of a good conscience--baptism is the seal of faith; which faith is begun and adorned by the faith of repentance. We are not therefore washed that we may leave off sinning, but because we have already done it, and are already purified in our hearts." [De Poeniten., c. 6. Gale’s Refl. 410] "There is no distinction between the catechumens and believers, they all meet together, they all pray together, they all hear together." [Rob. Hist. Bapt., p. 245] "To begin with baptism, when we are ready to enter into the water, and even before, we make our protestations before the minister and in the church, that we renounce the devil, all his pomps and vanities; afterwards we are plunged in the water three times, and they make us answer to some things which are not specified in the gospel." [De Corona Militis, Dupin, 3d Cent., p. 82]

    faith and practice still the same.
    God does have the power to keep his church from being corrupt and ceasing to exit.
    if you understood why God sent the Flood maybe you would understand. The Mystery of Iniquity! is amazing.

    yet more: In 331 Constantine changed his policy towards the Novatians, and they were involved, with other denominations, in distress and sufferings. Their books were sought for, they were forbidden assembling together, and many lost their places of worship.+ The orthodoxy of the Novatian party, with the influence of some of their ministers, is supposed to have procured some mitigation of the law. Constantine’s oppressive measures prompted many to leave the scene of sufferings, and retire into more sequestered spots. Claudius Seyssel, the popish archbishop, traces the rise of the Waldensian heresy to a pastor named Leo, leaving Rome at this period, for the Valleys. [Facts Opp. to Fict. p. 37

    the perpetuity of the Church's faith and practice will exist as long as the Word of God exist!

    Today we are looking at 2,000 years of change in the church.

    God never changes, so how can the church that Jesus built ever change in faith and practice.

    Today the church is fractured into many divisions of those that follow Martin Luther we have the Lutherans, followers of Calvin the Baptists, followers of Wesley the Methodists and so on.

    you are referring to the reformation era which the SDA are part of.

    The church is fallen and fractured as a whole that is why the angel in Rev 18:2 cried babylon is fallen. GOD is calling his true followers out of all churches and pleading with them "come out of her my people" Rev 18:4. Revelation is mostly history but when it was given at the time of John it was prophecy but now 2,000 yrs later it is mostly history. History is prophecy fulfilled. God is shaking the church and calling his true followers back to the bible and true worship. Those that follow the call will compose the true church.

    the true church has always existed.
    Faith and practice. faith is more than just the gospel! it is more than just salvation! it is the entire doctrinal system of truth. doctrine is bible! doctrine comprises the faith. doctrine is the foundation of the faith.
    why is the New Testament church the core of the faith?
    because without God's Truth, there would be no old-time Faith "once delivered to the saints" and the New Testament church is The Pillar And Ground of The Truth!

    btw, in order for the church to qualify scripturally, doctrinally, or historically they must trace themselves all the way back to Jesus. any that sprang up after the fact are not scriptural. period. according to the Precious Word of God. Amen.


  4. #43
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    order for the church to qualify scripturally, doctrinally, or historically they must trace themselves all the way back to Jesus. any that sprang up after the fact are not scriptural. period. [Posted by arc8]

    ================================================== ==========

    Arc, that needs some qualification. I belong to a non-denom that sprang up about 15 years ago but we are a part of the church of Christ. Our doctrinal statement agrees 100% with 100% of the Canon of Scripture.

    As long as the doctrinal statement of a congregation is Scripturally sound, it qualifies as a church of the Living God, no matter when they were founded.

    But I know what you're saying. Any congregation that does not stick to the whole of Scripture cannot be called a Christian church.
    No reserve. No retreat. No regrets.

    For those who have fought for it, freedom has a sweetness the protected will never know.

    http://www.airwarvietnam.com/16thSOSGunners2.jpg

    Proud member of KA Club

  5. #44
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    If I study the bible and do what it says, why should I bother to learn the history of the denomination where I fellowship.
    Why stop at Jesus time? Would a true church would be truer if it traced its roots back the Abram?

    Why should God care if I worship with reformed sinners, as long as I worship?

    ARC, Your elitist attitude is counter productive.
    If the superheat ain't right it ain't charged right.

  6. #45
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    Why stop at Jesus time? Would a true church would be truer if it traced its roots back the Abram? [Posted by Kim]

    ================================================== ==========

    Excellent point, Kim. Actually, a true Bible believing church should go all the way back before Adam...Genesis 1:1.
    Our spiritual heritage did not begin just 2000 years ago with Jesus in the first century. It began some 7000 years ago at creation. See John 1:1 and following.

    Thanks for pointing that out, Kim.
    No reserve. No retreat. No regrets.

    For those who have fought for it, freedom has a sweetness the protected will never know.

    http://www.airwarvietnam.com/16thSOSGunners2.jpg

    Proud member of KA Club

  7. #46
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    i'm sorry that i left you far out there.

    the true church has always existed.
    Faith and practice. faith is more than just the gospel! it is more than just salvation! it is the entire doctrinal system of truth. doctrine is bible! doctrine comprises the faith. doctrine is the foundation of the faith.
    why is the New Testament church the core of the faith?
    because without God's Truth, there would be no old-time Faith "once delivered to the saints" and the New Testament church is The Pillar And Ground of The Truth!

    btw, in order for the church to qualify scripturally, doctrinally, or historically they must trace themselves all the way back to Jesus. any that sprang up after the fact are not scriptural. period. according to the Precious Word of God. Amen.


    i will try to qualify this.
    without the perpetuity of the church, then Jesus Christ lied about his promise for the church, to be there till end of time. Mt.28:20

    did you know that the Great Commission was to the first church?
    to the church Jesus says; "I will give unto thee the keys(authority) of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." Mt.16:19

    did you know that if this church ever broke up or they did not regenerate themselves the commission would be broken!
    the commission was not to a building, but an assembly of believers that had been saved and been baptized.

    did you know that John the Baptist was Authorized by God to baptize, and if so, that scriptural baptism is only propagated thru a local church of believers by the propagation of churches. if a link ceased to exist then there would be no scriptural baptism, which the Lord commanded when He was baptized, to continue on, seeing John the Baptist is dead and the Great Commission ceased to exist.

    some things are wonderful to behold! and this is the Mystery of the Church!

    folks rest assure of this, folks that are saved by the word of God will be saved, whether it be a baptist church or some other, because God promised that.

    all these questions and beliefs that were brought up, lead me to this.
    IT's a matter of Authority, the Bible is Authoritative in a sense, that's why people hate the bible, except God's children.

  8. #47
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    basically what I am saying is the apostles set the church up under the influence of the H.S. and since then it has gone astray.

  9. #48
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    basically what I am saying is the apostles set the church up under the influence of the H.S. and since then it has gone astray.

    basically this is were we disagree then.

    1. the Lord himself set/started the church.
    2. The Lord promised He would be with the Church till the end of time.
    3. other than the Holy Ghost guiding the men of God, they had the Word of God, because the Lord said that the Holy Spirit would guide them in all truth, God's word.

    why would the Holy Spirit lead astray? or how can he lead astray?
    i know man that he is wicked and a sinner, but it is not man that promised but Christ that His Church would exist forever. God has the power to keep the perpetuity of His Church, like he has the power to preserve His Word and like He has the Power to keep His sons and daughters(believers) saved to the end. The Saved cannot lose his or her Salvation, it is the power of God, lest any man should boast.

    I'm glad God is not a puny God that can't even keep his promises. But lo, This is the LORD'S doing; it is marvellous in our eyes. Ps.118:23

    Remember the Great Commission was to the Church whether man is able or not able to keep it. The Church was to go on whether men died or apostasied.

    It is of God, not Man!!!

  10. #49
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    Originally posted by woods mech
    basically what I am saying is the apostles set the church up under the influence of the H.S. and since then it has gone astray.
    It has gone astray since around 312 AD when Constantine stopped persecuting the "church" and made christianity a state religion. However as individuals we do not have to be a part of the harlot church seen today.

  11. #50
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    It has gone astray since around 312 AD when Constantine stopped persecuting the "church" and made christianity a state religion. However as individuals we do not have to be a part of the harlot church seen today.

    study some more history and while you are doing that study the Word of God.

    if you could show some scriptures that God had not in his mind to continue his church till the end of the age, then I'll check into it to see if it ain't so.

    but if you show no scriptural proof, then please be careful to say nothing against God's word.

    BTW, i prefer God's word over man's historical facts.

    all i ask is, let the bible teach us what is the Mind of Christ, not church tradition and man's finite thinking.

    The Great Commission has three parts:
    1. win them
    2. baptize them
    3. teach them

    some will contend with me that the Great Commission was given to the universal, invisible church which is made up of all true believers. there are six things wrong with that concept.
    1. the bible never speaks of a universal church.
    2. the bible never speaks of an invisible church.
    3. an invisible church never won a soul.
    4. an invisible church never baptized a convert.
    5. an invisible church cannot teach anybody anything.
    6. if the Great Commission was given to all believers(believers, not the church), then any sixteen-year-old believer has the authority to win folks and baptize them! how foolish.

    no, the authority is the church. only the church has the authority.
    now, if only the devil can cut off the linages of the churches, he could destroy the God given authority to the church!
    no more authority, no more power. no more power, no more preaching of the Gospel; thus no Holy Spirit conviction power.

    the bible does speak clearly about the authority of the Great Commission given to the first church but many can't seem to see it. matter of fact, everything God does, it is done decently and in order. where do you think the form of government came from? it is of God, given to man so that we could live in a civil society, not chaos.

    study the state of the Angels, how they have a structured form of authority.

    everything God does, it is for his purpose and glory. you think maybe God couldn't keep his word or promise or didn't have the power to defeat satan and his demons while he still is the prince of power of the air.

    no, but God has preserved His Church and His Word forever. Amen.


  12. #51
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    Originally posted by arc8
    It has gone astray since around 312 AD when Constantine stopped persecuting the "church" and made christianity a state religion. However as individuals we do not have to be a part of the harlot church seen today.

    study some more history and while you are doing that study the Word of God.

    if you could show some scriptures that God had not in his mind to continue his church till the end of the age, then I'll check into it to see if it ain't so.

    Where did I state that? Why do you continually put words in my mouth. Please stay with the issues.

  13. #52
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    It wasn't the H.S. that led them astray. They went astray. The jews went astray also. This is the tendency of man because there is a war going on between Christ and satan and satan is very deceptive. The only way to prevent this is to read the bible and pray continually. Unfortunately many people do not read the bible for themselves. They only listen to what their preacher tells them or they want to follow the traditions of their family. They don't even know that they are living contrary to the teachings of the bible. Satan couldn't beat the early christian church by killing them so he changed tactics and joined the church and perverted it from the inside. He did the same thing to the ancient Jewish religion. GOD is calling his people out of the perverted churches because we are living in the end times.

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