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  1. #14
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    You are bashing all christians for the acts of a few hypocrites. Your conspiricy theory will get no credit if you tell me how stupid I am first.
    If the superheat ain't right it ain't charged right.

  2. #15
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    so ,is it blasphemy to baptise children?

    Read God's word. Seems like quoting is not good enough for some, though it's in the word of God. He said it and that's good enough.

    blaspheming who?

    Since I'm but a man, let's take God's view on it, read his word. Since man can't judge God, let God be God, the all wise Judge.

    churches do it that have right to that old church.(the first true church.
    catholics do it and they are the house of peter and paul,and all the apostles.


    Tell me, when did Jesus give that Authority to his first Church? Show me the scriptures? and I will show you the first church and that there are no popes in the bible.

    no protestants have written parts of the new bible.(although protestants have written new bibles.)

    Yeah, the Catholics have, the vaticanus; a corrupt manuscript. Some history is in order here, please do some study before assuming anything.

    so are you saying your religion is different than the catholic church?

    Surely you can tell that I don't believe in Church tradition. All faith and practice should be from the word of God.

    (assuming your answer is yes)

    why does your church have the right to re-interpret the bible(that was created by catholics,translated from oral tradition)?


    For your information, the Bible was written for mankind, not just churches and church leaders, but the commom man.
    Here's some misinterpretations; purgatory, infant baptism, salvation thru faith not works or sacraments, Mary is the mother of God, and etc... .
    Who's re-interpreting the bible?

    and how is it that your church picks one aspect to follow ,and another, not to follow?

    is that sticking to the word of god?

    where did you hear the word from.


    For the english speaking people the Authorize Version translation is the one I read. For your info, The Supreme being, the Almighty, the one and only God of the universe, the Lord Jesus Christ, God himself is the Author and finisher of our (believers) faith, which would also include his word.
    I can't say I know or do the churches know everything, but at least what we know, we should live by these, the words of Jesus Christ.

    and as for the original churches,what claim do you have that you feel the same as those people did.some of those people felt that jesus would return in their lifetimes.the end of the world was upon them.they were wrong.did god forget about them?he has not returned,nor he has not delivered the world into ....anything,except a strife ridden place where people bicker over their own personal interpretation of things they cannot know.

    It still the same, the believers are still waiting and believe it is eminent.

    do you really think there were churches from that time ,that became the holy roman church.and what about the churches from that time that had wildly different opinions on the nature of god.(including the jews)pantheists.being that the "words" of jesus vary according to the source,why do you take a certain source to be reliable?(including source found recently that pre-date the gospels of the bible that have wholly different implications,nag hammandi library,dead sea scrolls,and other bits and pieces.)

    I don't have time to get into this right now. Suffice to say that, not all newer sources are necessary reliable.

    and i'm not talking about an idea or popular notion that was incorporated in the universal church as it was created by constantine.because pagan traditions were incorporated in christianity too.like:
    no historian seems to believe anymore that jesus, the son of m iriam(mary),was actually born on the 25th of december(i've seen march and april,postulated,4 to 7 years b.c.)(and I'm not saying that date was in the bible,I don't know)Yet the catholic church has continued the roman tradition, and gotten christians to celebrate the winter solstice,every year.the birth of god,the birth of a new year.at the end of december.the gods are pleased.
    and the pagan tradition of celebrating the spring equinnox,by gathering around the right time of year,april,
    at sunrise and all facing east to welcome the "Rising son",the ressurection of a new living season (spring).to thank the lifegiver,nature's god.
    sounds like an sunrise easter service to me.
    and that is just two examples,not to include in this lineage from those early chuches to any today.


    Need I say more? I agree. What can you expect from a corrupt Church. This Church never had the truth.
    For your info, the Lord was crucified on wednesday afternoon, not Good friday.

    and lastly,
    What example of anything can you give that all that minuta in "the bible" has a meaning.
    good things happen to bad people,
    bad things happen to good people,
    over and over again.
    there are christian child molesters,are they going to heaven because they pray to the right god and repent before their death?
    and there are exempliary good people of all other faiths out there,doesn't heaven want them.
    what if their father and mother were good christians and they decided to be a good taoist.


    The Lord calls his preachers, not vice-versa. There are those that believe in losing your salvation, it is unscriptural.
    Did Judas go to heaven?
    You ask, but seems to me you can care less! Read what God has to say on these subjects.

    so seperating the natural human tendency that connects positively with the natural world around them,that human feeling that there is order amidst the chaos,and through diligence and discipline,they try to live their life in the "way",of grace.the feeling of all peoples throughout recorded history.

    Interesting.

    again I ask what evidence do you have of "your"bible dominated religion.having specific value.and legitimacy.

    It is the Words of the Most High, Jesus Christ.
    If I were to deny him, then I could not believe what I believe, don't you get it. What if the supernatural did exist, but you couldn't see it, does this make it non effect. Does the second birth do any thing for anyone? Ask the born-again christians about their births, the salvation miracle. They are my witnesses, my proof.

    where would it be without the inquisitions and ceaseless missionaries affecting the political life of civilizations around the globe for centuries?

    I'm sure glad for this country. Without it, who would God have chosen to be blessed and properous in order to carry out the Great Commission throughout the world!

    I seriously doubt any claims made by a church about a 1st century lineage. They would have had to stay pretty far off the radar to excape the "religous" when greedy tyrants or fundamentalist took over the catholic church.

    The Catholics never had the truth.
    I say prove it if you really believe in them.
    Nothing in my bible talks about many of the Catholic Church's doctrines. Oh! where did they get them from?
    Sorry that I may offend many, but until they stop bringing up questions relating to this, I will keep answering them.


  3. #16
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    Don't understand baptizing children being blaspheme. You are implying that 1)baptism is not nessesary or 2)Children can't be saved. Slamming an otherwise perfectly good religion based on one small point is more than just a bit extreme don't you think.
    Of course Jesus never baptized anybody. He beleived in baptism and he beleived that children can have faith. In a time when children were to never interupt adults (think strict Muslim ideals), Jesus chastized disiples that wanted to chase the children away. Jesus did not lay this one out in black and white, but he clearly seems to be on the side of the children on this one.

    I would appreciate it if you did not misquote the bible to tell me I have committed the biggest sin in the bible, when I had my children baptized. Your religion might be the only right interpretation out there, but calling me a blasphemer because I practice a ritual a little different than you do is counter-productive to say the least. I betit leads to more fights than converts.
    If the superheat ain't right it ain't charged right.

  4. #17
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    Don't understand baptizing children being blaspheme. You are implying that 1)baptism is not nessesary or 2)Children can't be saved. Slamming an otherwise perfectly good religion based on one small point is more than just a bit extreme don't you think.
    Of course Jesus never baptized anybody. He beleived in baptism and he beleived that children can have faith. In a time when children were to never interupt adults (think strict Muslim ideals), Jesus chastized disiples that wanted to chase the children away. Jesus did not lay this one out in black and white, but he clearly seems to be on the side of the children on this one.

    I would appreciate it if you did not misquote the bible to tell me I have committed the biggest sin in the bible, when I had my children baptized. Your religion might be the only right interpretation out there, but calling me a blasphemer because I practice a ritual a little different than you do is counter-productive to say the least. I betit leads to more fights than converts.


    Am I a heretic if I practice re-baptizing? Am I a blashemer if I preach another gospel? Paul speaking in the spirit said anyone who preaches another gospel, God will curse them. (BTW- I'm not a called out preacher)
    Isn't the power of salvation, of God, not of ourselves? If we would even change the gospel; the salvation plan, would we be considered a blashemer? Haven't you read what the Lord said about those Jews that did not or a better phrase would be "they refused to listen", that they were in danger of blashemy! Yeah, that's right, unbelief is blashemy. Period.

    You may think children have a full knowledge of their sins, your mistaken. Now your thinking that you didn't say that. Let's look at the bible, God's word. The bible never and it still hasn't said that you must be baptized to be saved! When children reach an age of accountabilty they will be responsible for their sins, then and only will they have an opportunity to hear the Gospel at an understandable mind, then get saved if they choose to.
    But before the age of accountability they are guarded by their angels; in other words, if they died before that age, they would go to heaven. The bible teaches this, but many folks are too lazy to read their bibles and let the preacher teach them without question, how foolish!!!

    Jesus told us if we humble ourselves like a child and be converted we shall not see the kingdom of heaven. Do you even understand the english language? Don't you understand that the Lord was meaning child like faith, not faith for their salvation, but child like faith that humbleth and trusteth in their parents (in God stead).
    Of course God loves the little children. What, doesn't he also love world?

    What if I say God believes in capital punishment according to his word, should I not say it because it might offend someone. Offenses will come says the Lord, but blessed are those that are not offended.

    BTW, this is not the biggest sin in believing in another gospel.
    I don't mean to sound rude, but it simply can't be taken out from the word of God. So I will believe God over man according to the scriptures and nothing more. Either I believe or I deny it.

    Would any born-again believer deny the scriptures?
    I can't say we would all agree in all doctrines, because not everyone knows or understands the mind of God all in the same instant.

    Think of the bible as a manual for our lives from God. Think of it as a love story from our Redeemer.

  5. #18
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    the word trinity is not in the Bible

    The Catholic church started the doctrine of the Trinity. The early church believed in One God=Jesus.

  6. #19
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    Re: the word trinity is not in the Bible

    Originally posted by JMP
    The Catholic church started the doctrine of the Trinity. The early church believed in One God=Jesus.
    ================================================== =========

    That's not what my Bible says.
    No reserve. No retreat. No regrets.

    For those who have fought for it, freedom has a sweetness the protected will never know.

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  7. #20
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    arc8

    just because you can cut and paste and insert your OPINION,doesn't actually strengthen your arguement.
    you should take a look at your history ,before you make yourself sound ignorant.

    born again,is that for real,or just your personal cop-out?
    does that make you feel holier than thou?I have been born again too.And that commonality doesn't make me agree with you.

    baptism is a symbolic gesture,not to be confused with the word of god.maybe the catholics are emulating john,in their own way.


    so what word of god are you hearing that didn't go through the catholic bible mill?In your bible.since that seems to be the end all of your reasoning.
    for we all know of many examples of the surviving fragments of manuscripts that pre-date chritianity.but paper lasts only so long,so to assume the scribes were totally A-political and free of revisionism is not taking into account the possibilities of human nature.and to ignore the variations in translations given in those varying manuscripts,is being disingenuous.

    and to trust things that were in the earth,while much of this recent(past 1700 years)revisionism of jesus and the meaning of christ,is applicable.and not without critical scrutiny.for the groups of people 2000 years ago,were as likely to politicize everything(especially god),as people are today.


    and I am really interested what "word" of god the protestant faiths have that wasn't ushered into this civilization by the early catholic church founders.

    and I stress again the early catholic church,used the story of jesus that was still around,in many forms.
    they perpetuated a form that strengthened the state and formed an infallible heirarchy at the head of said church.

    there were many forms of christianity that were in vogue,during the first millennia of a church creating itself.

    funny,the jews don't think jesus was a god. and jesus was a jew.
    they also don't believe in just one god.
    they believe in loyalty to just one god.their god.
    one god out of the many.
    they have a covenant with one of them.
    otherwise ,if they didn't believe in more than one god,there would be no need to tell people they must worship no other god(cause there wouldn't be any other god)

    and the stories of creation,say "man was created in OUR image",which is the tradition of the sumerians and all the civilizations that grew from them.including the jews.


    and don't get me wrong,I'm not knocking people working on themselves and their spiritual capital.I'm not arguing that we don't all share this journey with each other,like it or not.and everybody can find the "way" in whatever works for them.that is not for me to say.


    I'm saying that for people to honestly ponder what there might be after death,they should not just limit themselves to an orthodoxy,that is the result of corruption.(i.e. catholic/roman chuch)or any other corrupted messages for that matter.

  8. #21
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    Christianity has been around since creation. But the word "Christianity" was not coined till the first century.

    C'mon, if you're totally ignorant about something, don't talk about it. It makes you look foolish.
    No reserve. No retreat. No regrets.

    For those who have fought for it, freedom has a sweetness the protected will never know.

    http://www.airwarvietnam.com/16thSOSGunners2.jpg

    Proud member of KA Club

  9. #22
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    Originally posted by bootlen
    Christianity has been around since creation. But the word "Christianity" was not coined till the first century.

    C'mon, if you're totally ignorant about something, don't talk about it. It makes you look foolish.
    If Christianity was around since the creation does that mean Jesus was around also. I thought he was born 2000 years ago? Please explain.

  10. #23
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    Arc,

    What age do those little pagan kids have to be before they have to choose God? Where in the bible did you find that little loophole?

    Why would a ritual be so important that doing it wrong is blasmephy, but not be required for salvation.

    None of those rituals is as important as the feelings in your heart.
    If the superheat ain't right it ain't charged right.

  11. #24
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    Originally posted by JMP
    Originally posted by bootlen
    Christianity has been around since creation. But the word "Christianity" was not coined till the first century.

    C'mon, if you're totally ignorant about something, don't talk about it. It makes you look foolish.
    If Christianity was around since the creation does that mean Jesus was around also. I thought he was born 2000 years ago? Please explain.
    ================================================== ==========

    Very perceptive, JMP. Yes, God the Son (Jesus Christ) was very much around even before creation. John 1:1 and following states, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God." Later in that same chapter, it states, "...and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us." And if you continue to read John, it becomes obvious that "the Word" is Jesus. So, yep, your conclusion is correct.
    Jesus pre-existed time but was born as a man some 2000 years ago. His mother, Mary, was made pregnant by the Holy Spirit (miraculously, as she was a virgin at the time Jesus was born). So when Jesus was born, He was both human and God.

    BTW, Kim, these are more references to the concept of the Trinity. The word "Trinity" is not found in Scripture but the concept is abundantly presented.
    No reserve. No retreat. No regrets.

    For those who have fought for it, freedom has a sweetness the protected will never know.

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  12. #25
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    Everybody duck. Here comes Remember!
    No reserve. No retreat. No regrets.

    For those who have fought for it, freedom has a sweetness the protected will never know.

    http://www.airwarvietnam.com/16thSOSGunners2.jpg

    Proud member of KA Club

  13. #26
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    Trinity?

    the word trinity is not in the Bible
    The Catholic church started the doctrine of the Trinity. The early church believed in One God=Jesus.



    Read Genesis Chapter 1, the trinity were in the beginning of creation.
    And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and .... Ge.1:26 The trinity is there in creation of mankind.
    For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 1Jo.5:7

    I could go on and on but these should be sufficient. But unless I'm misunderstood, I should say: because the word Trinity isn't in the bible does that mean it's not true. But the teachings and doctrine of the Trinity are in the bible. It's like the term rapture, the word is not in the bible but the doctrine is. Now, unless I'm misunderstood again, I'm not implying that any doctrines can be created or pulled out from the scriptures, for example; like purgatory, infant baptism, etc.... Church traditions do not cut it, it must be in the word of God.

    BTW, I haven't studied the Jewish faith except in the old testament, but I have heard from some Jewish folks that some them do believe in the Triune Godhead. Anyway the old testament teaches the Triune Godhead, they had the five books and the others.
    BTW, the Lord believed in the Trinity, He is in the Trinity and even existed before the foundations of the world.

    I wish I didn't have to say this but i will: quit being lazy and read the bible, forget about what men have written or what they expound on. READ YOUR BIBLE!!!

    just because you can cut and paste and insert your OPINION,doesn't actually strengthen your arguement.
    you should take a look at your history ,before you make yourself sound ignorant.


    Do you think I am wrong? Why? I'm waiting for your historical proof! let alone any scriptural to back up your dogma.

    born again,is that for real,or just your personal cop-out?
    does that make you feel holier than thou?I have been born again too.And that commonality doesn't make me agree with you.


    Did I offend you? What was it? You keep asking me questions but never answering them!
    I rather point things about God, not about myself, I'm fallable you know or should know by now. Why would you want to measure up to me than God? Is it because of your sins? If anyone wants to serve God, He should become our example in all holiness and righteousness. We should live godly in all areas. This would include obedience to his word.
    Here's a revelation for you: therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold all things are become new. 2Co.5:17

    baptism is a symbolic gesture,not to be confused with the word of god.maybe the catholics are emulating john,in their own way.

    Here's another revelation: therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. Ro.6:4

    so what word of god are you hearing that didn't go through the catholic bible mill?In your bible.since that seems to be the end all of your reasoning.
    for we all know of many examples of the surviving fragments of manuscripts that pre-date chritianity.but paper lasts only so long,so to assume the scribes were totally A-political and free of revisionism is not taking into account the possibilities of human nature.and to ignore the variations in translations given in those varying manuscripts,is being disingenuous.

    and to trust things that were in the earth,while much of this recent(past 1700 years)revisionism of jesus and the meaning of christ,is applicable.and not without critical scrutiny.for the groups of people 2000 years ago,were as likely to politicize everything(especially god),as people are today.


    Quote: "It is significant that two very ancient manuscripts belonging to the latter part of this period, the Codex Vaticanus and Cotex Sinaiticus, present in a weakened form a whole series of important passages concerned with these vital doctrines. These two documents, which have been favoured by modern scholars engaged in the translation of the Holy Scriptures, represent a very small minority of the existing manuscripts." - John W. Burgon

    and I am really interested what "word" of god the protestant faiths have that wasn't ushered into this civilization by the early catholic church founders.

    A different text, go ahead and study.

    and I stress again the early catholic church,used the story of jesus that was still around,in many forms.
    they perpetuated a form that strengthened the state and formed an infallible heirarchy at the head of said church.
    there were many forms of christianity that were in vogue,during the first millennia of a church creating itself.


    ?

    funny,the jews don't think jesus was a god. and jesus was a jew.
    they also don't believe in just one god.
    they believe in loyalty to just one god.their god.
    one god out of the many.
    they have a covenant with one of them.
    otherwise ,if they didn't believe in more than one god,there would be no need to tell people they must worship no other god(cause there wouldn't be any other god)


    Your mistaken, the Jews did not believe that Jesus was the son of God, there is a difference.
    They believe in the Triune God.

    and the stories of creation,say "man was created in OUR image",which is the tradition of the sumerians and all the civilizations that grew from them.including the jews.

    So, who was first, God or man?

    and don't get me wrong,I'm not knocking people working on themselves and their spiritual capital.I'm not arguing that we don't all share this journey with each other,like it or not.and everybody can find the "way" in whatever works for them.that is not for me to say.
    I'm saying that for people to honestly ponder what there might be after death,they should not just limit themselves to an orthodoxy,that is the result of corruption.(i.e. catholic/roman chuch)or any other corrupted messages for that matter.


    I live my life based on biblical principles. What do ye live by?

    [Edited by arc8 on 08-12-2004 at 05:17 PM]

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