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  1. #1
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    All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit [Matthew 28:19].

    These are the words of Jesus. Jesus is the final atthourity in all things related to God's relation with people.
    Does that mean that the holy spirit exists as an entity? Could it be possible that the holy spirit is in the minds of the beleivers?
    Is Ghost the same thing as Spirit?
    I am not saying the Holy Spirit is not part of the God Head. I am saying it is a concept that is open to speculation and personal opinion. The Menninites, Methodist, and Baptists were formed by people that did not beleive in the trinity. I believe their main point was adult baptism. Hence the name Baptist.

    If the superheat ain't right it ain't charged right.

  2. #2
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    The Holy Spirit is a Spiritual Person

    Who inhabits us believers. It's what gives us our commonality with one another. Its receieved by the believer at the time of his or hers Salvation.

  3. #3
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    The Holy Spirit is a person of the Godhead. See these scriptures;

    The HS has intelligence; 1 Cor 2:9-16 & 1 Cor 12:8
    The HS has emotions: Romans 5:5 & Ephesians 4:30
    The HS has a will of his own: 1 Cor 12:11

    The HS is called God: Acts 5:1-5

    The HS pre-existed creation: Genesis 1:1

    Many scriptures inform us that the HS performs the following tasks:

    He; teaches, knows, speaks, reveals, convinces, commands, strives, moves, helps, guides, inspires and sanctifies.

    He is a person of the Godhead and is co-equal with the Father and the Son.

    You really asked three questions;

    Is there really a trinity?
    Is the Holy Spirit a person?
    Is the Holy Spirit God?

    We could go on for pages and pages with scriptural proofs that the answer to all three questions is yes. That is, if you take the scriptures as your authority!


  4. #4
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    I would like to beleive that there is a little part of God in all of us. When we die that part goes back to God. That is the thing we find vacant in our lives. That little part of God in us would be the Holy Spirit. It is God. It existed forever and all the stuff That Norm said. It is also the spirit inside man like Rob says.

    My bible says "He who beleives and is baptized will be saved. He that beleiveth not shall be damned." Do I just have to beleive that Jesus is the Son of God (We are all the sons of God in small letters)? Do I have to beleive in the trinity like the Apostles creed says in order to be saved? I can say that I beleive in the trinity exactly as Norm stated it, but God knows I have doubts in my heart.

    Purgatory adds comfort. I can spend a little time there before I get to graduate into heaven. The problem is my bible does not have purgatory in it. Will my doubts land me in hell, even if I try as hard as I can? Will I be able to be the lowest servent in Heaven because I almost got it?
    I pray with all my heart that I could have the faith of a child and beleive everything that is told to me. I see the confliction and want to dispell the doubts, but everytime I get something figured out it leaves 2 more questions. God made me this way. He will not leave me hanging out there for any longer than I can take it. He must know me better than I know me, because I have been hanging for a very long time. Hopefully that means I have a lot long time to be here to settle my heart and soul.

    Good enough is not in my vocabulary. God deserves better than just an attempt at a passing grade. He deserves 110% even if I never pass.
    If the superheat ain't right it ain't charged right.

  5. #5
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    Originally posted by kim
    I would like to beleive that there is a little part of God in all of us. When we die that part goes back to God. That is the thing we find vacant in our lives. That little part of God in us would be the Holy Spirit. It is God. It existed forever and all the stuff That Norm said. It is also the spirit inside man like Rob says.
    This is an excellent discription of the concept of God's relationship with man, in my opinion.

    All theist belief is conceptual. The Trinity is not ever mentioned specifically in the bible. It is a conceived perception of the combination of Jesus, God the Father and the Holy Spirit, all of which are mentioned in the bible.

    Personally, I don't believe that God is confined to only three personatlities. Like Kim says, if a bit of God is what makes up each and every soul then God is way more multifaceted than three parts.

    Like Norm says, this can go on forever in degate. That is because it is conceptual. It is how we want to perceive what we cannot specifically define.
    Government is a disease...
    ...masquerading as its own cure…
    Ecclesiastes 10:2 NIV


  6. #6
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    I am suspicious by nature. 3 parts sounds to much like Kabalah and Jewish mistisism to me.

    I hope it is enough to truely beleive that Jesus was God in the flesh. He WAS a man. He IS God. He is the light to quide our path and cast back the darkness. God is the perfect father (as in leader of the group not the dominating male boss). God must be somewhat disappionted with his spitefull creation, but can beam with pride when we use the lessons he tried to teach us.

    If the superheat ain't right it ain't charged right.

  7. #7
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    Post The Holy Ghost is God

    As I read the Holy Scriptures, Joseph and Mary were told that the Holy Ghost conceived the One she was carrying without having known a man, making the Holy Ghost God. Yet Jesus prays to His father and the Heavenly Father of all Christians (by adoption, through the new birth: regeneration).
    A good site giving different views:
    '
    http://www.religioustoplerance.org/jesus_pa.htm
    '
    I think there is a lot of tolerance on these boards!

  8. #8
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    All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit [Matthew 28:19].

    These are the words of Jesus. Jesus is the final atthourity in all things related to God's relation with people.
    Does that mean that the holy spirit exists as an entity? Could it be possible that the holy spirit is in the minds of the beleivers?
    Is Ghost the same thing as Spirit?
    I am not saying the Holy Spirit is not part of the God Head. I am saying it is a concept that is open to speculation and personal opinion. The Menninites, Methodist, and Baptists were formed by people that did not beleive in the trinity. I believe their main point was adult baptism. Hence the name Baptist.


    Yes to your first question, read Genesis Chapter 1, the trinity were in creation together.
    And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and .... Ge.1:26 The trinity is there in creation of mankind.
    For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 1Jo.5:7
    I could go on and on but these shall be sufficient.

    Second question is no. You mean our body the temple.

    Third question is yes, read the scriptures.

    Your last statement is your misunderstanding of history and scriptures. It is true the Baptist always believe in believers baptism, not infant baptism, which is blasphemy, but as the Apostles believe in the Trinity so did the Baptist.
    BTW, the Baptist name(so called) was given by the world church leaders because of what you mention, they rebaptised.
    And the first churches were not called Baptist after the first century, they were called specific name churches like; the Donatists, Monanist, Paulician, Novationist: these were some of the names used to identify those who refused to identify with Rome.
    Do not misunderstand that each of these groups was entirely free from error or entirely embraced the truth. Through these groups you can traced the people called Baptists. These groups are to be found in the true church -- not in Catholicism.


    I would like to beleive that there is a little part of God in all of us. When we die that part goes back to God. That is the thing we find vacant in our lives. That little part of God in us would be the Holy Spirit. It is God. It existed forever and all the stuff That Norm said. It is also the spirit inside man like Rob says.

    The bible speaks of three parts of man; the flesh(body), the soul (our personality, us), and the spirit of God.
    I don't have time to get into this. Some other time.

    My bible says "He who beleives and is baptized will be saved. He that beleiveth not shall be damned." Do I just have to beleive that Jesus is the Son of God (We are all the sons of God in small letters)? Do I have to beleive in the trinity like the Apostles creed says in order to be saved? I can say that I beleive in the trinity exactly as Norm stated it, but God knows I have doubts in my heart.

    Well, to tell the truth, we are the children of the devil unless we get born-again into the Kingdom of God. Unless you are saved, you can't be the sons of God!
    "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: ..." Jo.1:12

    Read Ro.3:10-23

    Read Ro.10:9-10

    You don't need to understand the Trinity but only believe the gospel to be saved!

    Purgatory adds comfort. I can spend a little time there before I get to graduate into heaven. The problem is my bible does not have purgatory in it. Will my doubts land me in hell, even if I try as hard as I can? Will I be able to be the lowest servent in Heaven because I almost got it?
    I pray with all my heart that I could have the faith of a child and beleive everything that is told to me. I see the confliction and want to dispell the doubts, but everytime I get something figured out it leaves 2 more questions. God made me this way. He will not leave me hanging out there for any longer than I can take it. He must know me better than I know me, because I have been hanging for a very long time. Hopefully that means I have a lot long time to be here to settle my heart and soul.


    I'm glad you see that there is no purgatory in the bible, nor should there be.
    Even a saint can doubt, but still be saved. But we don't have to doubt, we have God's word; "a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: ..." 2Pe.1:19


    [Edited by arc8 on 08-07-2004 at 07:17 PM]

  9. #9
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    so ,is it blasphemy to baptise children?

    blaspheming who?

    churches do it that have right to that old church.(the first true church.
    catholics do it and they are the house of peter and paul,and all the apostles.

    no protestants have written parts of the new bible.(although protestants have written new bibles.)


    so are you saying your religion is different than the catholic church?

    (assuming your answer is yes)

    why does your church have the right to re-interpret the bible(that was created by catholics,translated from oral tradition)?


    and how is it that your church picks one aspect to follow ,and another, not to follow?

    is that sticking to the word of god?

    where did you hear the word from.




    and as for the original churches,what claim do you have that you feel the same as those people did.some of those people felt that jesus would return in their lifetimes.the end of the world was upon them.they were wrong.did god forget about them?he has not returned,nor he has not delivered the world into ....anything,except a strife ridden place where people bicker over their own personal interpretation of things they cannot know.

    do you really think there were churches from that time ,that became the holy roman church.and what about the churches from that time that had wildly different opinions on the nature of god.(including the jews)pantheists.being that the "words" of jesus vary according to the source,why do you take a certain source to be reliable?(including source found recently that pre-date the gospels of the bible that have wholly different implications,nag hammandi library,dead sea scrolls,and other bits and pieces.)

    and i'm not talking about an idea or popular notion that was incorporated in the universal church as it was created by constantine.because pagan traditions were incorporated in christianity too.like:

    no historian seems to believe anymore that jesus, the son of m iriam(mary),was actually born on the 25th of december(i've seen march and april,postulated,4 to 7 years b.c.)(and I'm not saying that date was in the bible,I don't know)Yet the catholic church has continued the roman tradition, and gotten christians to celebrate the winter solstice,every year.the birth of god,the birth of a new year.at the end of december.the gods are pleased.

    and the pagan tradition of celebrating the spring equinnox,by gathering around the right time of year,april,
    at sunrise and all facing east to welcome the "Rising son",the ressurection of a new living season (spring).to thank the lifegiver,nature's god.
    sounds like an sunrise easter service to me.

    and that is just two examples,not to include in this lineage from those early chuches to any today.

    and lastly,
    What example of anything can you give that all that minuta in "the bible" has a meaning.


    good things happen to bad people,
    bad things happen to good people,

    over and over again.
    there are christian child molesters,are they going to heaven because they pray to the right god and repent before their death?
    and there are exempliary good people of all other faiths out there,doesn't heaven want them.
    what if their father and mother were good christians and they decided to be a good taoist.

    so seperating the natural human tendency that connects positively with the natural world around them,that human feeling that there is order amidst the chaos,and through diligence and discipline,they try to live their life in the "way",of grace.the feeling of all peoples throughout recorded history.

    again I ask what evidence do you have of "your"bible dominated religion.having specific value.and legitimacy.

    where would it be without the inquisitions and ceaseless missionaries affecting the political life of civilizations around the globe for centuries?

  10. #10
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    Remember:

    You are all over the map. You need to settle down and take one thing at a time. Your post assumes a great deal about the rest of us. Much of which is untrue.


  11. #11
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    The bible speaks of God the creator/father. 1John 6:21
    The bible speaks of God the son (Son of God) Matt 4:3
    The bible speaks of the comforter (spirit), which we have interpreted as the holy spirit/ghost. Matt 1:18

    There are other scriptures with similar refrences. Look them up.

    I don't find a refrence to pergatory, but I do find a refrence to paradise.

    There are many refrences to heaven and several to hell/haddies/place of fire, etc...


    Those who dance, appear insane to those who do not hear the music.
    Those who believe, appear ignorant to those who do not know God.

  12. #12
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    Wow, lots of stuff.

    Arc, People who quote the bible, tend to not explain things. It is like they understand what they just said so well, they can't imagine somebody else not understanding.

    I seriously doubt any claims made by a church about a 1st century lineage. They would have had to stay pretty far off the radar to excape the "religous" when greedy tyrants or fundamentalist took over the catholic church.


    Remember,
    You can't judge a religion by its members. Not all people are who they claim to be. Some just don't understand. A little rationality in your arguements please.
    If the superheat ain't right it ain't charged right.

  13. #13
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    my apologies to all the rational people out there.

    I am not trying to assume anything about you.
    there is a handful of the zealots,that my tyraids are directed at.and I suppose I should apologize to them too,for I'm sure I'm just a pain in the ass to them.

    I think there is ample room for most people to believe whatever they need to(save the few that do harm to the rest)

    My "jumping around" is an attempt to not let a point be isolated from the context of the whole of history,as if a viewpoint could exist in a vacuum.

    I respect peoples religions,I know it would be rude to be so opinionated if we were speaking in person.

    and the idiosyncrises of religous dogma,do not color the knowledge I have of people of many faiths,to being good people.
    the many faces of the faithful in all religions and atheism alike ,are good and bad.and usually the bad use the deeds of the good to hide behind.and the good in"action"tend to "rise beyond"the bad,so as not to feel guilty for the sins of others.


    I may play the devil's advocate,but only to bring out a "different" point of view.some people feel their "othodoxy" can resist rationalism and escape scrutiny.
    I believe ;"whatever is,can stand the light of day and the closest of scrutiny"

    I know god is in no way injured by questioning,and niether should one's faith be.

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