Why not R-134a in residential AC?

[Skeizer]

Why have we not used R-134a refrigerant in residential A/c systems? I have worked on many R-12 residential systems in past years and lots of R-12 commercial systems. There must be some reasoning in going to R-410, other than the money aspect.

[Joe Harper]

The suction line sizes would have to be dramatically increased.

[BaldLoonie]

Carrier had one before the 410 days.

[enervac]

When the refrigerators and car Ac's are with R-134a It can be used for residential also. Only reason I could apprehend is the most of the coils / chasis for WAC are made for R-22 and probably R-410 is closer to that.

In fact for residential it is preferable to go for R-134a as it is safer and lower pressure wne compared to R-410

[jpsmith1cm]

And homeowners can buy it at WalMart.......

[Skeizer]

I am not a big follower of 410a and can not say exactly why. Perhaps, this is my rebelliousness. I just think there could be room for other choices, unless there is an oil carrying problem, capacity problem, etcetera. Considering that many mobile units have capacities equating to a 5 ton home unit, I question a capacity problem. The oil situation is still something to be considered. If I was to initiate manufacturing of a new A/C line, could I utilize, realistically, R-134a as my refrigerant? I think this is my real question.

[y7turbo]

I am not a big follower of 410a and can not say exactly why.

I think its the pressures I dislike most. I was working on a water cooled indoor package unit and the condenser water flow was low so I had the head pressure at 600psi. I put gloves on when i took off my high side gauge, I didnt know if the valve core would hold back the 600psi.

I would rather stick to 22 or 407c or 134.

[gasoilair]

I think its the pressures I dislike most. I was working on a water cooled indoor package unit and the condenser water flow was low so I had the head pressure at 600psi. I put gloves on when i took off my high side gauge, I didnt know if the valve core would hold back the 600psi.

I would rather stick to 22 or 407c or 134.

My exact reason for using service valves on my hose ends. backing the knob off closes the core without any chance of getting my fingers fried.

[midhvac]

You guys just put a visual in my head about what the pressures in a car AC could get up to if they used 410A.

[u4david]

Why have we not used R-134a refrigerant in residential A/c systems? I have worked on many R-12 residential systems in past years and lots of R-12 commercial systems. There must be some reasoning in going to R-410, other than the money aspect.

Many residential and commercial system use copper lines.
R-134a is highly corrosive to copper, and causes copper plating to non copper parts in the system.
R-134a also attracts moisture so system requires drier to trap moisture in contaminated system.
R-134a is widely used in cars where the system is designed using aluminium lines, evaporator,dryer.

If you looking to retrofit r-12 there is other options that are better fit.

[Restaurant Mech]

Many residential and commercial system use copper lines.
R-134a is highly corrosive to copper, and causes copper plating to non copper parts in the system.
R-134a also attracts moisture so system requires drier to trap moisture in contaminated system.
R-134a is widely used in cars where the system is designed using aluminium lines, evaporator,dryer.

If you looking to retrofit r-12 there is other options that are better fit.

You resurrect a 12 year old thread and obviously Don't know that almost all blends of refrigerant contain r134a....
Not only that, but lots of small appliances run 134 with copper systems....

[pecmsg]

Many residential and commercial system use copper lines.
R-134a is highly corrosive to copper, and causes copper plating to non copper parts in the system.
R-134a also attracts moisture so system requires drier to trap moisture in contaminated system.
R-134a is widely used in cars where the system is designed using aluminium lines, evaporator,dryer.

If you looking to retrofit r-12 there is other options that are better fit.

I call


B S

[ehsx]

I call


B S

X2

[Jim5418]

Hot Shot was the stuff back in the day. I thought it did better than R12

[rexp]

Here is an excerpt from an article on copper corrosion in systems containing refrigerants (refer to https://www.thefreelibrary.com/Deter.....-a0201378217 )

Lots of technical info, looks like the lubricants + water are a significant contributor to the issue.

+++++
Field Reports of Copper Plating. As opposed to the accelerated sealed tube and compressor tests, the field reports of copper plating indicated that the presence of water levels as low as 200 ppm increased copper plating for R-134a/POE oil systems (amount of air not measured) and that the iron concentrations increased with copper plating (Herbe and Lundqvist 1997). Air conditioning systems being converted from CFC-12/mineral oil systems to HFC-134a/polyalkylene glycol (PAG) systems suffered heavy copper plating and heavy filter plugging (insoluble copper compounds) when shipboard refrigeration systems were converted to HFC-134a/POE system (Nickens 1992). Early work with PAG oils (1600 ppm water in PAG) reported heavy copper plating for compressor test stands and refrigerators running on R-134a (Reyes-Gavilan 1993). In contrast to other reports of copper plating, refrigeration systems running for 5 years with R-12/mineral oils or R-134a/POE oils showed no signs of copper plating (Reimer and Hansen 1996).
+++++

[ehsx]

Note the article refers to refrigerants & oils containing high levels of moisture which causes formation of acids.

No such problems when proper handling and procedures are followed.

Show me a report showing acids with water ppm < 50.

Hcfc’ s with poe is far worse than hfc’s due to most or the moisture will be absorbed by the poe, while hfc will hold moisture nearly at the same rate of poe.

[Poodle Head Mikey]

The pounds pumped per hour per ton are 1/3 higher than with R-22 and double what is required with R-410. This isn't All it - but higher pressures bring greater vapor densities. Compressors pump vapor so the volumetric efficiencies are higher.

R-134 is a fairly inefficient refrigerant - and pumping twice as much of it will take more horsepower per ton. Although I do not know it, I do suspect that if the vehicle market had not panicked and committed to R-134 in the early 1990's - R-134 would be long forgotten by now.

PHM
--------

Why have we not used R-134a refrigerant in residential A/c systems? I have worked on many R-12 residential systems in past years and lots of R-12 commercial systems. There must be some reasoning in going to R-410, other than the money aspect.

[gustavhorna]

everyone should be moving to 1234yf

[jbhenergy]

everyone should be moving to 1234yf

My mechanic calls it 1234 you’re f*cked because of the price


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[CHAINIK]

.