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  1. #1
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    Jun 2010
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    13

    what to do with shop drawings >> help me plz

    I am a 2 years HVAC designer engineeer and i 've been sent to the site for reviewing HVAC Shop Drawings.

    Can anyone give me a general idea about the steps that should i follow in reviewing ?

    Some techniques that i should use in reviewing ?

    What are the major issues that i must look at ?

    please help me with ur experience in this matter.

    Thanks in advance to all of u

  2. #2
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    Dec 2002
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    It`s better to be silent and thought the fool; than speak and remove all doubt.

  3. #3
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    Oct 2001
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    6,855
    check fire damper locations on the discharge and returns thru walls,stat locations if the walls are up,access to the units if ceiling hung..general location of units versus what drawing shows make a point to into yourself to the duct,electrical,plumbing formans..check those condensate run outs in in the ceiling..access again is critical if youre company is doing the followup service and a panel isn't accessable because of a conduit or pipe running infront of it..you'll get didn't you see that on the walk thru...keeping the extras down$$$$ will be the result of your eyeballing any and all items to see how they are going in...good luck
    "when in doubt...jump it out" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Px5YcOeQB4I

  4. #4
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    Jun 2010
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    Quote Originally Posted by maxster View Post
    check fire damper locations on the discharge and returns thru walls,stat locations if the walls are up,access to the units if ceiling hung..general location of units versus what drawing shows make a point to into yourself to the duct,electrical,plumbing formans..check those condensate run outs in in the ceiling..access again is critical if youre company is doing the followup service and a panel isn't accessable because of a conduit or pipe running infront of it..you'll get didn't you see that on the walk thru...keeping the extras down$$$$ will be the result of your eyeballing any and all items to see how they are going in...good luck
    let's say i have sequence of operation drawing and equipment schedules drawing and grills and diffusers drawing ... tell me please how can i review these shop drawings and comment on them ??

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Lancaster PA
    Posts
    66,808
    Check sequence of operation.
    Check that equipment and devices are installed where drawings show. Mark corrections on prints. Check for correct duct sizes. Mark differences on prints.
    Contractor locator map

    How-to-apply-for-Professional

    How many times must one fix something before it is fixed?

  6. #6
    Join Date
    May 2007
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    Dry as a bone Tucson
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    Quote Originally Posted by fedo2006 View Post
    I am a 2 years HVAC designer engineeer and i 've been sent to the site for reviewing HVAC Shop Drawings.

    Can anyone give me a general idea about the steps that should i follow in reviewing ?

    Some techniques that i should use in reviewing ?

    What are the major issues that i must look at ?

    please help me with ur experience in this matter.

    Thanks in advance to all of u
    Please elaborate--------SHOP DRAWINGS or Engineers plans?

    If your talking about engineers plans.......
    Well to start with why dont you throw out those details of piping,condensates,duct connections etc. etc from the 70's into the trash bin and draw up some updated versions. Also it would be nice if you used some up to date equipment specs, and by the way carrier is not the current favorite in light commercial like it used to be. And not all systems are at 400 cfm, Perforated diffusers? where have you been lately...does anybody even use these anymore? Are you sure that you want this duct work to go thru this room at the elevation that you drew? Because I don't think people want to look at or appreciate the asthetics of foil back wrap.
    Water flows down hill, to get to that wall where you want me to drain that condensate is going to require a pump at that elevation even though it is only 8' away? Why do you insist in running duct from one end of the building to the other? Start in the middle..then we can split the air in half and reduce the duct sizes,improve airflow and reduce costs....everybody is happy! Aspect ratio...do you know what aspect ratio is? I dont care if the only duct that will fit is 42x6, make something work that makes sense!
    Some Talk, Some Do
    "keeping condensing pressures low and evaporator pressures high"
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  7. #7
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Middle of Florida
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    2,159
    Spec book spells out what is wanted in shop drawings and by what sub contractors. The worst ones I ever had.

    Had me showing duct elevations and duct sizes top of duct and bottom of ductwork. mech room all elevations, grill locations, t stat locations, etc. sounds like your job is to make sure they do what the specs spell out.
    If common sense is so common how come so few of us have it!

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Jackson, MS
    Posts
    78

    Smile

    Some contractors do what they can to work WITH the engineer; others look to see how many change orders they can get. The good ones look at what needs to be accomplished, they look at what the engineer drew and spec'ed, and they compare the two. If the engineer's way is good, they'll do the work that way; if not, good contractors will make the engineer aware of his "technical omissions".
    How well the shop drawings need to be reviewed depends entirely on how good (or how lazy) the design engineer was, and the competency/morality of the contractor. If the design engineer has left 75% of the design to the contractor, you have a lot of work ahead of you to make sure the contractor can do most of the engineering "stuff" the engineer was supposed to do. Had an electrical engineer years ago that left 100% of the design of an 80-foot loudspeaker tower for a football stadium to the contractor (the tower was covered in one sentence in the specs!).
    You need to be very familiar with the plans and specs for the job you are reviewing, and you need to be a good enough engineer to know when the plans and specs are inadequate, and/or the work being done ain't gonna do the job.
    Word processors can be the engineer's best friend and the contractor's worst enemy (Gets the paperwork out fast, even though it's wrong!). That's where several of the previous comments have come from - using 1980's specs in today's contracting world. We do both engineering and contracting - I've had knives thrown at me from both directions!
    The MAIN advice I could offer is - think practical! The system has to last a lot of years after the certificate of occupancy is issued, and it's only gonna last that long if was properly designed, properly installed and can be properly maintained. If a design engineer is involved in a project, the contractor really shouldn't have to do anything other than "follow the directions" - he shouldn't have to write them!
    I also noticed your experience level - you will probably meet contractor personnel on the jobsite with much more experience than you have - be nice to them and they will be nice to you. You won't have to be out there long before you realize who knows what they're talking about, and who doesn't.
    You may have been handed this assignment as a learning experience - that's a good thing.
    Hope something "rattled off" above helps you out a bit.
    Dave E

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
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    13
    Quote Originally Posted by dave91169 View Post
    Some contractors do what they can to work WITH the engineer; others look to see how many change orders they can get. The good ones look at what needs to be accomplished, they look at what the engineer drew and spec'ed, and they compare the two. If the engineer's way is good, they'll do the work that way; if not, good contractors will make the engineer aware of his "technical omissions".
    How well the shop drawings need to be reviewed depends entirely on how good (or how lazy) the design engineer was, and the competency/morality of the contractor. If the design engineer has left 75% of the design to the contractor, you have a lot of work ahead of you to make sure the contractor can do most of the engineering "stuff" the engineer was supposed to do. Had an electrical engineer years ago that left 100% of the design of an 80-foot loudspeaker tower for a football stadium to the contractor (the tower was covered in one sentence in the specs!).
    You need to be very familiar with the plans and specs for the job you are reviewing, and you need to be a good enough engineer to know when the plans and specs are inadequate, and/or the work being done ain't gonna do the job.
    Word processors can be the engineer's best friend and the contractor's worst enemy (Gets the paperwork out fast, even though it's wrong!). That's where several of the previous comments have come from - using 1980's specs in today's contracting world. We do both engineering and contracting - I've had knives thrown at me from both directions!
    The MAIN advice I could offer is - think practical! The system has to last a lot of years after the certificate of occupancy is issued, and it's only gonna last that long if was properly designed, properly installed and can be properly maintained. If a design engineer is involved in a project, the contractor really shouldn't have to do anything other than "follow the directions" - he shouldn't have to write them!
    I also noticed your experience level - you will probably meet contractor personnel on the jobsite with much more experience than you have - be nice to them and they will be nice to you. You won't have to be out there long before you realize who knows what they're talking about, and who doesn't.
    You may have been handed this assignment as a learning experience - that's a good thing.
    Hope something "rattled off" above helps you out a bit.
    Dave E
    thank you so much ... you open my eyes on things really important.

    I really get alot of your comment.

    Thanks again

  10. #10
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    Jun 2010
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    13
    Quote Originally Posted by secorp View Post
    Spec book spells out what is wanted in shop drawings and by what sub contractors. The worst ones I ever had.

    Had me showing duct elevations and duct sizes top of duct and bottom of ductwork. mech room all elevations, grill locations, t stat locations, etc. sounds like your job is to make sure they do what the specs spell out.
    you are correct .. i need to get into the specs

    thank you so much for ur answer

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    158
    Well down here in Australia...
    Cutting and pasting specs together will make you look like an idiot. But having a good format you use consistently helps keep things running smoothly.
    I can divide most specs up into 3 lots of useful pages. (I'm an controls electrician) The scope (listing whats being installed), the section labelled 'control strategies' and the section describing how/where my equipment needs to interact with other trades/companies equipment. The rest I just quickly scan for any suprises.

    You can make the history books by being the first person to create specs that have maximum current ratings that are actually accurate!

    If you work as a consultant, please - don't become one of the ones that nod, smile, then generate an email that unnecessarily plants a large knife in someones back.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    May 2007
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    Dry as a bone Tucson
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    If you work as a consultant, please - don't become one of the ones that nod, smile, then generate an email that unnecessarily plants a large knife in someones back.
    Hey, sounds like you've worked in Phoenix!

    A nod,smile and then the knife !
    Some Talk, Some Do
    "keeping condensing pressures low and evaporator pressures high"
    Comfort is my goal
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  13. #13
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Australia
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    158
    I think it's part of their training worldwide )
    "Module 2-23, Screwing the contractor to the wall even tho he warned us this was gonna happen"
    The DDC system... guilty until proven innocent

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